low output in clones?

[mongo]

I've noticed that some of the clones I've made have very low output compared to  the commercial pedals I have.


  I've built the TONEPAD Big muff and  AMZ overdrive pro, and while they sound great, they have like HALF the output compared to my original big muff for instance.

 what might be causing this? is this how they're supposed to behave?

maybe I'm using "poor quality" components to built them?

I'm intrigued, is this normal?

Thanx  in advance for your opinions,

Andy

[R.G.]

No, it's not normal.

A clone is a clone is a clone is a...

A clone of a commercial pedal **is** the same as the commercial pedal to with the degree of closeness that you complete the circuit correctly.

Commercial manufacturers value predictability above all else.

Something that's uniformly mediocre is worth much, much more than something that's mediocre most times and occcasionally great. The "occasionally great" units make the vast mass of mediocre pedals appear to be even worse to the mediocre owners, so the mediocre owners are all dissatisfied. If there is never a great one, all the owners are equal and it's less frustrating.

There is nothing inherently worse about a hand-built clone.  

Did you compare your clones to exactly the same pedal that it's a clone of? Or just to other commmercial pedals in general?

[mongo]

well,

I compared my big muff clone to REAL big muffs, both the opamp version and the transistor model.

 there IS a difference in output level.

 the clones, as I said before,while giving a cool and clear effect have LOW output  when compared to the  original models about half of the originals output

 I've tried different batteries as well but this does not make any difference.

I,ve tried changing transistors and diodes on the clones and there is NO difference in output levels.

   once again, they deliver an effect, it's just that they have LOW OUTPUT.

??

[petemoore]

My Big Muff is very high output, I set the volume well below full [IOW, there's ALOT of room between above unity and full volume by knob or ear...'a' BMP should have PlentY of output...
 The AMZ OD PRO, OTOH, is low output. May be less than unity at certain tone control settings with the volume maxxed.
 I'd look for something 'different' that shown in the case of the BMP, it should have TONs of output.
 In the case of the OD PRO, a gain recovery booster can be placed at the end of the circuit [where I'd put it] to boost the volume output well over unity.

[dv8]

The tonestack in the Overdrive Pro eats some of the volume.  Turn the TMB (treble-mid-bass) knobs way up or:

Replace the diodes in the Overdrive Pro with leds.  This gave a boost and adequate volume.  Not execessive, but above unity.  I had planned to tack a booster on to mine before I switched the diodes to leds.  This pedal supplies the desired effect without slamming your amp.

With the simple change (leds) I was very happy. Very good pedal BTW. Thanks Jack!

As always you can add a simple boost to the end of any pedal, like the Sparkleboost or AMZ Mini-Booster, etc.  Or install a volume recovery, look for RDV's mods to the Sonic Distortion SD-9.

-brian

[mongo]

Thank you very much for your tips about the AMZ OD!!!

 and what about the TONEPAD big muff??? what could be causing the low output? I built 2 of this units and,compared to original muffs, both have low output

What should I look for here?

Thanks again,

Andy

[petemoore]

Thank you very much for your tips about the AMZ OD!!!

 and what about the TONEPAD big muff??? what could be causing the low output? I built 2 of this units and,compared to original muffs, both have low output
 It would seem 'doesn't work right' is comparably equal to 'doesn't work' ITC.
 If you want to know what I do when that happens read "What to do when it doesn't work" Post. I do my prelims' by taking voltage measurements and analyzing them if I can, or letting others take a shot at them here...
 To be complete about what I do:
 ...and use the thumbprobe patented audio injector technique. use a probe to connect your thumb [in a low voltage circuit only,...almost certain death with a High voltage circuit]...output cap thumbuzz, should be milder...about the same as touching the tip of a live unplugged cable.
 Follow that through, I'll look later...anyway they tone section passives should 'cut' or attenuate whatever signal [including thumbuzz], so an attenuated slightly mellowed buzz should be heard [or not...I havent' messed with that lately..]...anyway about the time the signal path is traced and touched where there's an active gain stage, the base should be noticably louder than the collector. And so on, following the signal path from the output toward and to the input, looking for gain increases with gain stages, however much signal drop a tone control induces...etc.
 IIRC There's an emitter follower stage the signal path follows, in which case there should be the same gain from base to emitter.
 By the time you get to the input, it should be much louder than the output, voltages may tell in what area the gain isn't being produced or is being lost. Sustain knob is a volume knob after some gain staging. Tone knob...affects tone and volume to a much lesser degree.

What should I look for here?

Thanks again,

Andy

[dv8]

Check with General Guitar Gadgets site in the Build Instructions for the BMP, JD has voltages on Q1-Q4 see how they compare to your build.  If they don't match post your voltages here, post your voltages here, I'm sure someone will help.  Also post what transistors you used.

Or just search this forum for help.  I'm sure there's plenty on the BMP.

I haven't built the BMP, but it supposed to be high gain.

[StephenGiles]

Thank you very much for your tips about the AMZ OD!!!

 and what about the TONEPAD big muff??? what could be causing the low output? I built 2 of this units and,compared to original muffs, both have low output

What should I look for here?

Thanks again,

Andy

Quite simplement mon ami, a wrong component. Checkez vous all the feedback resistors around the opamps, and resistors between opamps - a 1meg resistor instead of a 100k or even 10k would make tous la differance!
Stephen - please excuse my Franglais!

[mongo]

I use 2n5088 and 2n5089 transistors...

I'll try the voltage readings and get back with results...

thank you very much for your help everyone!!!

and for stephen... there are no OPamps  on the TONEPAD BMP layout!!

Andy :wink:

[gez]

Are you sticking pulldown resistors on the outputs of all these clones?  If so, make sure you've got the correct value, i.e. large, to prevent loading.

[mongo]

Are you sticking pulldown resistors on the outputs of all these clones?  If so, make sure you've got the correct value, i.e. large, to prevent loading.

   Hi gez,  I dont understand what you mean could you expand your explanation on this??

Thank you!

Andy

[gez]

Some effects have a pot from the output cap to ground at their output to control level, in these cases there's no need for pulldown resistors.  Effects which don't have such a pot usually have a fixed value resistor from the output cap to ground to 'bleed off' leakage and prevent popping when switching the effect in and out.  

With some designs the output can be loaded by using the wrong value pot/pull-down resistor at the output.

If I recall, there's something over at Geofex about all this but I couldn't find the damn thing!

[StephenGiles]

I use 2n5088 and 2n5089 transistors...

I'll try the voltage readings and get back with results...

thank you very much for your help everyone!!!

and for stephen... there are no OPamps  on the TONEPAD BMP layout!!

Andy :wink:

Ah, it just shows how much I read the posts here!! :lol: