How easily can a highschool student build a Mutron III?

[voodoochili12]

Hey everyone. I'll be very honest here: I'm 100% new to this forum and pedal-building as a whole. I'm a senior in highschool and had this crazy idea to clone a Mutron III for my senior masterwork. About how long does building one of these take, does it require parts from an old Mutron III, and since I have no previous experience, do I have any chance in hell to complete this? I really have no clue as to how this will work out, it's simply an idea. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. Thanks ya'll!

[cd]

Start here:

http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/pedalsMutronIII.html

Or actually, if you've never built anything, start here:

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewforum.php?f=6

[voodoochili12]

Well I would like to be able to get info from people who create pedals often, and know how long they take, etc.

[tiges_ tendres]

as a relative newcomer to pedal building myself, and having seen the mutron schematic, i'd say do somthing else first.

If you can solder, great, if you can't, this is not a good one to begin with.  Try something with fewer parts, less switches, as there is less to trouble shoot if stuff goes wrong.  The tighter the spaces, the more problematic soldernig can be.

If you are going to make circuit boards yourself, this is a great tutorial on http//:www.tonepad.com

Id say either start with the beginners project on this forum, and then build a treble booster and a then a fuzz pedal.  If you have all the parts you could probably knock the basics out in a probably a few hours.  i built my first kit, a tone bender from buildyourownclone.com and from start to finish it was probably about 5 hours, and that was with everything thoroughly labelled and with great instructions.

[cd]

Well I would like to be able to get info from people who create pedals often, and know how long they take, etc.

If you've never done it before, it's not a matter of time.  Hell, even if you've built dozens of pedals from scratch, a project with the complexity level of a Mutron III has so many possibilities for troubleshooting, you can spend more time fixing it than actually building it!  My best advice: start with something small and get a feel for that, then take a look at the Mutron III project and extrapolate from that.  At the very least, it's an advanced project - you could tackle it as a first project, but really only if you're prepared to spend more time learning the circuit,  building techniques, and troubleshooting (not to mention spending $$$) than actually building the circuit itself.

[RandomRedLetters]

I agree with CD. Its a bit of a tough project for a beginner. Per haps try an Electra Distortion or a EH Signal Booster first to get the feel of wiring everything correctly. Maybe then step up to a minimal Tubescreamer (true bypass, only the clipping, tone, and volume stage) and then go for the Mutron. If its your first time, even a small pedal should take you a good weekend because you'll probably be miswiring thing, etc.

[petemoore]

As long as everything works out perfectly the first time...I wouldn't count on it though.
 I'd build up some elementary building/debugging chops first, and, do LOTS of reading...
 Check out GEO's Neutron Filter texts and schemati.

[ninoman123]

Im a highschool senior. Started building pedals in about Feb. Last pedal I built was a Small Clone. Then I went to amps. And now Im cloning a 36 watt Marshall. Its not hard, just read, read, read, and then when you think you are done reading...read some more...but dont start with the Mutron...thats tough and you might wanna jump off a building. My first project was the EZ overdrive at GGG. I say it took me 4 or so months to get to do the Small Clone.  If you have that kind of time then start slow and work up to it. Otherwise jump right in, but it might not be very fun.

[petemoore]

We're talking school year just beginning...
 I hope you'll excuse me rethinking my answer.
 Since you've chosen this as an interest for learning, first and foremost I can guarantee that you will learn alot, probably you'll be like the rest of us DIY Addicts here and delve into understanding alot of what happens 'under the hood', I might just join you and suggest a second beginner section called 'Senior Project'.
 And very [time/patience permitting] likely you'll have a real nice Super Fun to play through filter device doing exactly what you want it to.

[Transmogrifox]

I was in your very same place as a highschooler (now 8 or 9 years ago).  I wanted to start with a fuzz, but I didn't know of this forum or any place to get  the info and parts I needed to do it.  Therefore I let people discourage me from trying.  Anyone with electronics knowlege was like, "It's not worth your time....yada, yada, yada...".

Anyway, I wish I had just delved in and tried it.  Wasn't until 3 years after when I decided to go into electrical engineering I picked up the parts from the stock room and wired it up.  It didn't work.  At this point I had only completed EE 101 (which is the kind of knowlege you can obtain very quickly by reading the sites recommended by people in this forum for beginners).  I did get some distortion circuits working on my breadboard, but it took until the next year to understand why it didn't work the first time.

The fortunate thing about the MUTRON is that it's an IC-based design.  IC component variations won't make the difference between working or not, so if you build the thing with the parts specified and wire it as shown in the diagram, it will work.

The challenge is when you get done building it and it doesn't work you need to find out what you did wrong and it's sooooo easy to keep overlooking something you brushed over or misinterpreted in the diagram--and, how do you know it's that or if it's a solder bridge you accidentally made that's too thin to see with the eyes.

I think you could build the thing in about 20 hours.  I, being more experienced now, think that if I just sat down with a couple perfboards, soldering iron, nippie cutters and a pile of components I could have the circuit operating in about 5 hours (just for reference sake).

I know I'm totally rambling.  I'm encouraging you to give it a shot, but only if you are doing for as much a hobby as an assignment.  I think that when you figure in the time you will spend learning enough just to get started, then building it, then learning enough to debug it and then to debug it (not if it doesn't work the first time, but WHEN it doesn't work the first time) you will have a good full semester project on your hands.  I would anticipate about 60 hours working on this would not be unreasonable when you factor in learning and starting over time.

What you gain is the ability to continue building stompboxes for yourself and an extremely fulfilling feeling of accomplishment.  There are some schematics to some amazing stompbox circuits floating around this community that can't even be purchased commercially.  Each one you build will make the next go faster.

Just for reference, I can bang out a simple distortion box (like a Tubescreamer type overdrive) in about 5 hours start to finish...if all goes well :wink:

There are cases for me like this week I made a white noise generator which is a very simple circuit with hardly any parts count.  It took me about an hour to build it and it worked perfectly.  I went to use it the next day and it was unstable (made a 6 kHz whine).  I spent 3 hours last night debugging it and never figured out what changed.  I would have been better off just building another one.  I hope that gives you some idea of what you're getting into.  I don't want it to scare you away from it.  

I'm with the others, though.  It might be nice to build something simple like a 1 transistor booster just to build confidence that you can make something electronic that works: you can plug your guitar in one side, amp to the other, and sound comes through an active device.  That confidence proves very helpful in keeping you from getting too discouraged later on when things aren't working well.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I think you could build the thing in about 20 hours.  

So could I. but it might take ma a bit longer to get it going!! (even with help from this board).
Seriously, I agree with all the advice so far. especially about doing some simpler stuff first. You WILL make mistakes.. but, when you finally get exactly the right parts joined in exactly the right way, it WILL work, because electrons have no imagination.

[ninoman123]

Oh and chicks dig nerdy talk by the way. My girlfriend helps me pick out capacitors and resistors. However, one time she didnt pick me up a 47uf electrolytic because she thought it was "ugly". I quickly had to remind her that it goes inside the box and nobody will ever see it. She likes the blue electros not the brown ones. LoL.

[dpresley58]

Its not hard, just read, read, read, and then when you think you are done reading...read some more...

I'd have to agree. (The bit about your girlfriend was a riot, btw)

I also build guitars before getting into electronics. Just seemed like a natural progression. My approach is to research the matter as much as possible until I feel the confidence level reach "that" point.

There's a well-known builder who also teaches. One of his laments is that in almost every field of endeavor, everyone wants to "be", but nobody wants to "become". It takes time and effort, but effort is a relative term. If you want it enough and stay interested in pursuing it, the time is short and the chase becomes fun.

FWIW, I started with a couple of builds from runoffgroove. The first one took almost three weeks to get everything together. (The website at Mouser was pretty intimidating, for instance.."Is this the right friggin' part??") and there was a ton of minutae I had to chase down about wiring, types of wire, grounding, troubleshooting, etc... Most of it was found here and at various other websites.

By contrast, the second build was done in a day. The learning curve really does become exponential. Now, I do my own layouts, burn the boards and zap out my own graphics with decals.

Ninoman has it right. Read. Surf. Do it some more. Then ask questions.

Good luck and above all else, have fun. The questions you've asked so far tell me you'll do just fine.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I think I might have said this before, but I made a couple of "false atarts" before I got into electronics. What got me there in the end, was just DOING IT, soldering away. And I can assure you it was a while before anything worked... it is an enormous advantage, today, that via this board you can get links to places like GGG where people actually give build reports, there are so many flawed circuits on the web (and even in some books!).... Start with something that others have tested, maybe a vero booster. Also maybe try to link up with someone local who is into DIY electronics, most of the action is in DIY robotics today.

[cd]

so if you build the thing with the parts specified and wire it as shown in the diagram, it will work.

Ah, that's the part that's easier said than done! One bridged solder trace, or one backwards cap and you're SOL.  With a simple Electra Distortion or something, it would be easy to find out what's wrong... now multiply that by 100 (for the complexity of a Mutron) and your margin for error (if you need it done QUICK) goes down to near zero.

I don't mean to sound discouraging, but a Mutron III as a first project has the potential for extreme frustration - which will only multiply with the amount of $ you have to drop on parts ($50-100+ depending on what you already have).

Let's look at it from another perspective.  If you've never done any pedal building before, have never even soldered before, you could easily spend 1 hour a day, Monday to Friday, for 6 months getting it working, which amounts to 240 hours.  Seems ridiculously high, but for the vets out there, how long did it take you to learn to solder properly?  Now throw in the time required to source parts, get help, look up this or that on the internet, etc. etc.  1 hour a day is nothing.

[voodoochili12]

Thank to all of you for your help and responses, I wasn't aware that the mutron was a compicated pedal. I will probably go with a muff or tube screamer. Thanks again, I really appreciate it all. You all are a lot more welcoming than other various forums I have been too. Peace!

[petemoore]

> <
 take a piece of perfboard big muff enough to fit the entire circuit on, I'd just start with...cut 15 rows tall off...all the way across the bottom of a big RS Board of perf.
 Perf is a great 'tutor' simply because it forces you to figure things out, relating the schematic and texts to 'your' board, instead of 'color by number' [vero/PCB]...which is what you want for a monster build, it eliminates many variables that screw you up and teach you stuff.
 Build just the first stage, between stages are staging caps, Q1 of BMP's collector connects to this.
 Use a socket for the transistor [and diodes if you want to change them around...?] or heat sinks [these comps have diodes] while soldering.
 Drill holes through the board where necessary for the offboard wiring 'harness', be sure to run the battery clip wires through the holes 'before soldering the connection, the clip wont fit through !!
 I wire offboard components last.
 Try to leave room or carefully clip the output volume pot to the *last staging cap [if your'e trying a stage first, maybe don't solder in the > side of the stage 1 output cap, use clipwires...once you get that going, you're good, lucky, or figured something out about debugging, and can continue on to stage two.
 Use a socket for diodes if you want to change them around...?]

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

as pretty much everyone here has said, you can build it if you are determined. your skills will develop with constant use, so builds like the mutron are probably better left for a later date.

you could probably learn to solder effectively after reading all information you can find, and then soldering for about 5-10 hours. i had a bunch of perfboard and dead IC's. i learned pretty quick.

part identification (picking out the resistors/caps you need) took me  about 2-3 hours of rummaging through bins. this stage is often overlooked when you're talking about building a pedal, but it takes me about an hour a pedal when i dig through my great pile o' resistors. just picking up every part you have and identifying it will help with this alot.

debugging takes probably 10 hours of actual circuit examination and about a dozen "my pedal doesn't work..." threads before you can get it to a regularly useable level.

wiring a pedal is easily the most time consuming and tiring task. you will find yourself populating PCBs and leaving them alone for weeks at a time!  :x  it took me probably 7-8 hours to figure out how to correctly wire a pedal's components, and usually takes me about an hour for a small pedal. those stereo jacks will kick a newb's ass.

enclosure work? i still mess that up sometimes. for someone who has NO experience with shop-like stuff, give yourself about 10-15 hours before you make good looking enclosures.

ok. that about covers it. basically, you can expect about 30-50 hours of actual skill development before you're truly set to build an advanced project, and present it for a grade.  

if anyone feels that my estimates were poor, feel free to correct me. i was just posting the time it took me to get certain skills to a practical level.

[petemoore]

Iron tip is hot
 Solder is cold
 components are cold
 solder transfers heat when a little bit is melted across the components and iron tip
 Allow the stuff a second or few to 'gather' heat after the 'transfer heat solder' is applied.
 Add more solder to cool things off a bit, just enough for structural integrity
 Constant adding of solder makes it hard for the joint to heat properly, and leads to huge blobs and cold solderings...not good
 Get a stereo jack, mono plug, and DMM, see if you can disregard tip connection of jack, and get the Sleeve/Ring of the jack to connect/disconnect when a plug is inserted/de-inserted to figure out the input jack power cut trik.

[voodoochili12]

Thanks again for all the help guys *peace*