OT: boost issue

[comfortably_numb]

I have a problem.  I've been experimenting with boosters/overdrives in front of my amp.  It happens to sound really damn good when slammed hard with either a clean boost or a low gain overdrive.  The problem with this is that when disengaged, the clean sound of my amp is at a much lower volume than the boosted sound.  I'm running the amp far enough from break up that it doesn't distort without the extra push, but just barely below that point.

I know a lot of you use boosters for this purpose.  Any suggestions on how to equalize the two "channels" I'm using?

[petemoore]

  Leave the booster on and have two output volume choices or maybe a gain change Via Switch?It happens to sound really damn good when slammed hard with either a clean boost or a low gain overdrive. 
The problem with this is that when disengaged, the clean sound of my amp is at a much lower volume than the boosted sound.  I'm running the amp far enough from break up that it doesn't distort without the extra push, but just barely below that point.
  Do you want clean but higher volume when not using the booster, *or the same sound as the boosted up amp, but at a lower volume.
  *I think the second 'want' may be trickier to obtain.

[comfortably_numb]

I want the clean tone of my amp to be louder.  Or more precisely, I want the clean sound and the overdriven sound to be closer to each other in volume.

As I said, the amp is tuned so that it is just below break up when clean, then I engage a boost to overdrive the preamp.  I can't really add anymore volume before the clean sound without getting some break up (which I don't want on my clean tone) but the boost for the overdrive sound is so hot that it is very far away from the clean sound. 

Making sense?

[LyleCaldwell]

Totally depends on the amp.  So, what amp are you using?

[tcobretti]

One thing to try is instead of switching the booster off, just roll back your volume knob till it cleans up a bit. 

As a listener, I'm always jarred when people switch their dist off and have a totally clean guitar.  I much prefer that they just play quieter.  The other side of this is my pet peeve - the guitar gets quieter when they kick on the distortion.  Man, I freaking hate that!

[petemoore]

I really hate modern country music.
  It is just Rock Music, but with a Country Twist.

[tcobretti]

I think what offends me so much is that it is so obviously product that is being marketed. 

I've been thinking I should change my footnote anyway; It's a little too aggressive for my tastes.

[aron]

I'm guessing but I would make a booster with 2 preset levels. Louder and LOUD and perhaps it will give you what you want.

[trevize]

if you want a more "creamy sound" you could also ask in an amp forum.
if you want in general more breakup it could depend also on the input stage tube,
a tube more prone to distortion could help a lot i think,
also leveling the difference in volume.
ou can't do everything with stompboxes

[comfortably_numb]

What amp forum are you refering to?

[R.G.]

Here's the short version.

The booster is overdriving your input stage. That means that the input stage is always maxxed out when the booster is on. It maybe maxxed out to a more or less degree (i.e. more or less a square wave than a squashed sine), but it's level is always the same when boostered. When you kick your booster out, the booster's gain is pulled out of the chain. It's only by luck if the level you're then feeding the input stage happens to get it to full - but clean - level.

In addition, slightly distorted signals sound louder than undistorted signals. It's a quirk of human hearing. (Russell O. Hamm,  "Tubes vs Transistors) So it's going to be hard to match those levels without including the first stage in your messing about.

The right way to do this is to put a level control after the first stage that is switchable. The level control would compensate for both the real and apparent gain change in the booster. So when you're clean, you're clean. When you kick in the booster, it maxes out the first stage, but the same action kicks in a divider after the input stage that lowers the level again so that the power amp sees the same output level. This will equalize the levels better.

But it's not perfect. The sound you're getting that you like is the sum total of all the effects of overdriving your input stage. That overdrives the second stage, and the third if any, and the PI, and the power amp, and the speakers. So the mimicry is not perfect. You may have to experiment with where in that chain you lower the levels back to equal.

This is, by the way, what a number of commercial amps do to keep overdrive and clean "channels" similar in level.

More perfect might be to construct an artificial, external "input stage" to be overdriven by your booster, then feed that signal to a volume control and into your amp. I think we just reinvented the Tube Driver.   

[syndromet]

How bout a bosster in the effect chain, to push the poweramp a little harder? make it switchable, so that you turn poweramp booster on when you turn the preamp booster off.

[Mark Hammer]

This is why people often end up using distortion pedals; because it permits sounds of different degrees of aggressiveness with helpful volume balance.  In your instance, you like how the amp sounds when pushed hard, but the fact remains that you can't take a single-channel amp and push it while being also able to NOT push it at a similar volume level...unless it had gain and master volume and you could remotely switch the two.

As RG suggests, you may end up wanting a tube overdrive.  Keep in mind, though, that sometimes what people like the most about their tube amp is not the way the preamp section sounds when pushed, but how the power amp section sounds, and of course that is more difficult to mimic with a floorbox and a 12AX7 or two.

I think maybe you need another amp.

[comfortably_numb]

Thanks everyone, very helpful.  I wonder if I could, as per syndromet's post, make a mosFET boost or similar that was always on, but switched between two sets of jacks, one before the preamp, and the other in the effects loop before the power amp.

This may have to be a dual boost in order to get the levels well matched.  Could I do a dual boost that would simultaneously switch one on and the other off, each connected to a different set of jacks?

The obvious problem with this is that at high stage volumes the second boost may cause power amp distortion.

Maybe I'll just get that Matchless I've been wanting...

Thanks,
CJD

[Mark Hammer]

Lyle asked a very good question which bears repeating, though.

What amp are you using?  There may well be a very simple solution to your problem, depending on the design of the amp in question.

[Seljer]

You could make a effects order reverser and use it to change around the order of your preamp (kind of weird setup but it should work) and the booster

of course other things might come into play if you want to have any effects in between

[comfortably_numb]

The amp is a Tech 21 Trademark 60.  A 60watt solidstate combo.  It's not SansAmp technology, but it's very tubey.  I actually chose it over a Fender DeVille.  Part of this was the $380 price tag as opposed to $800, but the sound is very good and very flexible.  If the distortion channel had a bite switch like the clean, I might just use it.  As it is, it's a bit muddy for my taste.  It also is pretty gritty at the minimum drive setting, which is unfortunate. 

I think Mark is right though.  I've never found a single amp I've been happy with, Marshall, Mesa, Fender, Orange, you name it, I've played it.  I either hate the distortion or hate the clean sounds.  Or I find one or the other mediocre, which obviously won't do.  At present I'm between bands, so it isn't paramount that I find that sound.  But soon it may be.

[Mark Hammer]

Just took a look at the Tech21 website info on the Trademark 60.  Seems to me you ought to be able to do what you want by combining a pedal-boost and amp-channel switch,  Alternatively, the amp has a solo boost function, which perhaps you can engage when the clean booster is disengaged.

So, there may well be a way around your problem, using the built in features of the amp.  Will it be feasible with a 3PDT stompswitch?  Maybe not.  On the other hand, as I keep spouting off about, one of the cool things about the AMX MosFet booster is that it can be actuated and bypassed via a SPST (two contacts), leaving more contacts on a 3PDT available for other duties, one of which may be channel switching on your amp.

[comfortably_numb]

Good call Mark.  I don't know why the solo function hadn't occured to me.  It's a post preamp volume boost already built in.  Jesus.