TZF with two pedals . . .

[sfr]

Looking at Moosapotamus' site again for the first time in a while, I got reminded that I always wanted to put an fx loop on one of my delays, either the PT80 or Rebote. 

Anyway, this got me thinking and I'm wondering - if I run the flanger only on the dry signal chain from a delay with a loop like this, and lift the uneffected signal from flanger's output, and set the delay for a single repeat at a short delay, I should be able to ape the TZF type sound? 

I'm not 100% certain I'm grasping the TZF concept, but isn't it basically delaying the unaffected sound of a flanger by a set rate, so that flanged signal sweeps to and from the straight signal from both sides?  And wouldn't this accomplish it?

[christian]

You have to split the input signal. One path goes to fixed small delay, the other goes to modified flanger that has the "dry" path disconnected so that you only get the modulated delayed signal. Then you mix these up and you can also send that back before the split and mix it in there to get resonance control.

You do need a really small delay from the fixed-delay, I dont know whats the minimum of pt80 or rebote. But thats the basic of the system.

ch.

[Mark Hammer]

In the early 80's, when digital delays were considerably more limited in what they could do, Craig Anderton wrote a great deal about how to accomplish TZF in exactly the manner you describe.  One unit would be used as the "clean" channel, and a second used as the "delay" channel.  Instead of these being in one single box with a splitter and mixer integrated into the pedal, this virtual TZF pedal would be split apart over several devices: 1) an active splitter, 2) one delay line for the offset clean, 3) one delay line for the swept delay (wet only), 4) a mixer to recombine the two signals.

Although I gather there is some risk for heterodyning of clock signals and acquiring noise in such a process, when it is inside of one box, the risk of any bleeding of clock signal are reduced by virtue of the fact that each signal path is in its own enclosure with its own fairly substantial noise-reduction.

Note that the user is free to use essentially ANY fixed delay offset they want for the "clean" channel, with the following provisos/caveats:

1) The amount of time spent on "the other side of zero" will depend on the offset and the sweep range of the swept unit.  So, if the swept unit goes from 1-15ms, and the fixed unit is set to 5 msec, the net combination will be equivalent to a 1-10msec flange sweep and spend a fair amount of time on the other side of zero as the swept part races ahead by 5msec and then retreats back to the "proper" side of zero.  That isn't wrong or bad in any sense, but there ar different feels achieved by having varying amounts of time spent on "the other side of zero" and the feel you want may well be unattainable given the limitations of the particular units in use.

2) More time introduced to the fixed delay results in a potentially discernible stagger between when you pick and when you hear it, somewhat similar to the slight delay produced by older guitar synths.  So, you may well love the effect but not be able to use it in a gigging situation in some instances.

I recently picked up a second Boss BF-1 for peanuts, and while I like the through-zero capabilities of my Tone Core Liqui-Flange, it occurred to me that it might be worth my while to adapt my two BF-1's for TZF purposes.  All that's really needed is to lift one end of the appropriate mixing resistor on each unit, so that they both yield delay only.  One gets set for fixed delay, and the other for swept delay, and they both get fed into a mixer.  Happily, that is a VERY reversible type of pedal-surgery, and the sort of thing that could be done with just about any flanger pedal that has some sort of sweep-width/manual-offset circuit similar to the one used in the BF-1 or BF-2.