Posting Layouts vs. Schematics

[Auke Haarsma]

At first I preferred layouts (pcb over vero) because to me, no techical schooling whatsoever, it is more natural. Like, paint by numbers. You actually 'see' the parts as they are. However, I found it very hard to 'understand' a circuit when I have only a layout -> that's what I experienced building the ROG's Thor.

Schematics are much easier to understand, once you understand them . By building the thor from the schematic on my breadboard I learned LOTS of stuff about stages, eq, gain, functions of several parts etc. I now recognize the building blocks.

Schematics are a bit more abstract, but therefor much easier to follow.

The more I learn, to more I like schematics.

[Doug_H]

Nothing wrong with paint-by-number builds, especially if you are a novice. OTOH I would hope that eventually people would get curious enough about how this stuff works to at least learn how to read a schematic.

[Doug_H]

there`s a  popular "building their own clowns" effects company,
that even sells kits of copied commercial pedals
without schematics. 

Cloners, moochers, etc don't have any use for schematics. They just need to crank out units, so the PCB layout is the important piece for them. The design has become a commodity of little or no value, and that's unfortunate.

[sfr]

It still takes me a while to decipher a schematic entirely.  But I'm at the point now where I can glance over it and identify most of what's generally going on pretty immediatly.  When I started building electronics, I just went with home-etched boards from available layouts in.  Which was great. 

...Until the first time something went wrong, or I wanted to be able to change something more to my liking, and wasn't able to get a "change R31 to 10K to decrease the gain" kind of answer, or the problem was more than a cold solder joint.   

I also wanted to understand the *why* of things, so I could be more self-reliant.  All of this meant learning to understand schematics, and as time goes on, learning more and more about the theory behind them as well.  (Being able to tell that a resistor is connected between the output and inverting input of an opamp, and what those pins are is one thing, but knowing why, and what it relates to and what the values of those resistors tell you is another)  I'm slowly getting there. 

I think one thing that helps is something like the audio probe; and scopes as well, if you can get them; as well as the meter, of course. For me, at least, being able to see and hear and measure what was going on in the circuit went a long way towards understanding it.

Something else that helps is the basic "walk throughs" of what happens in a circuit, like in some of what Anderton's written, or many of the excellent articles on R.G.'s site - sometimes I can identify the basics of what's going on, but often the interconnections between various "chunks" get lost on me without a guide.  Going along, following through some of those types of desciptions with the audio probe, scope and meter, I learned a lot about how some things work.

I've only been a member since 2003, although I was reading through this place for a while before I joined, but it seems like back then there were a lot more original designs coming out of people here, along with names we don't see as much anymore.  There also seemed to be a lot less of the same questions over and over again.  But maybe that's just me.  I'm certainly not complaining, this forum and it's archives are a wealth of information I'm glad to have, and I'm always very happy at how great and courteous the atmosphere is here. 

I think building a few pedals with nothing but layouts (or at least using nothing but layouts) is a great way to get started, have a sense of accomplishment, and feel good about this hobby.  Banging your head against the wall with theory and tech isn't probably going to enamor a lot of people with the idea of electronics.  And some of us learn better working in an applied fashion.  But eventually you hit a wall and it's important to go back and start learning the theory and the book stuff.  I went back and did that, and I need to go back again, now that stuff is starting to make sense more (having applied what I learned the last time round) and I'm hitting a wall again.  (And I know I ask a lot of dumb questions here; but trust me - if I hadn't hit the books when I had, I'd be asking a lot more even stupider ones!) 

If folks are releasing a layout only in the hopes to get others to attempt their circuits, I have to question how helpful that is - as many people have stated, they tend to maybe not bother if there isn't a schematic as well, leaving the "build by numbers" crowd (and no insult meant to them) - who I feel like are either going to like it or not, but aren't going to give you as useful feedback on the design as those folks who might examine things more closely if you put the schematic up there as well. 

I know I've started doing more and more of my own layouts, to fit the parts that I have, the enclosures I have, and as practice because it's the only way I'll get better.   I also pretty much avoid any layout where I see wires coming out of pads all over the darn place, so I redo those.  But I won't build something if I know I have to work backwards from a layout that doesn't work for me (for whatever reason) before working forwards from a schematic. 

[R.G.]

Smart guy! I raise my glass to you.

[Doug_H]

Wow, great post!

Sometimes the trends can get kind of depressing, then you read a post like that. Thanks for sharing!

[Jay Doyle]

Echoing Doug, it is great to hear your experiences sfr! Thanks for sharing. I only hope that more can start to 'see the light'. I think what happened with the proliferation of boutique companies, more and more people started to think that they could build their own too, if not for profit, then at least for themselves. The theory IS pretty daunting at first and the learning curve can seem pretty steep, so having a paint by numbers project is just what people need for the least amount of effort (this least amount of effort attitude proliferates, if you think not, look through the posts on any day and think to yourself how many of those questions, just from the title alone, could have been answered if the poster had spent the time and effort to actually read the FAQ). Though I also think that they start out thinking it will save them money, only to quickly find out the opposite.

Personally, I NEED to know how something works, if I'm going to spend the time building something, I need to spend the time knowing why x hooked to Y behaves like Z. Of course, I had three years in a van to either stare forward at the highway or read up on FX. I chose the latter.

I only hope that the interest will swing back to where it was, as you mention, a time when new designs were being released and cooperatively worked on together.

Unfortunately, some unscrupulous individuals (some who post here nearly daily and have 'way' more posts than I) have abused our generosity and made a lot of people very wary about posting anything. Which of course has stifled creation and innovation, but it is the downside of other's limited morals and ethics. Oh well. On the upside, the day you see a 'booteek' manufacturer actually come up with something that isn't just a Rat, TS, Fuzz Face, BMP, Ross Comp/Orange Squeezer, transistor booster, etc. then you know that they actually put some WORK into the design. I'm not holding my breath though...

Again, sfr, I hope that more and more find your path. And thanks again for relating your experience.

Regards,

Jay Doyle

[Ben N]

For a slightly different perspective, I read a lot more than I build--not that much time to work with. A layout is only useful for me if I am building, and then only if I build on that medium--so, as I tend to build on perfboard, stripboard and pcb layouts generally don't do much for me.

But I can always get something out of a well drawn schematic. And the discussions tend to be better where a schematic is involved, because people are talking about how to make the sound , and not just how to build the box. So, I, too, tend to skip the threads and projects that don't have a schematic, but read, and sometimes participate, where there are ideas being expressed (even if they are a bit over my head) and not just recipes.

Ben

[joegagan]

I like schems
good posts all around, thanks!

[petemoore]

I will be starting my first build soon and was wondering which type of board would be easiest to use. I don't mind etching a PCB, but it looks like most people just use perfboards and solder the components together using the leads. Is one better than the other? It seems like an etched board would be esiest, but maybe I'm missing something.

[gaussmarkov]

it has seemed to me for some time that separating "Building your own stompbox" into "Help me build my own stompbox" and "Designing your own stompbox" would be a good thing.  now that the volume on this forum has reached new highs, the reasons for this seem even more compelling.

my 2 cents, gm

[O]

it has seemed to me for some time that separating "Building your own stompbox" into "Help me build my own stompbox" and "Designing your own stompbox" would be a good thing.  now that the volume on this forum has reached new highs, the reasons for this seem even more compelling.

my 2 cents, gm

taking that idea further, a "Repair your own stompbox" would also help; especially if topics were kept tidy and organized by effect.

[Jay Doyle]

As juicy and tempting as splitting the forum sounds, we can't even get people to use the search function, so I don't think we'll have much luck getting them to find the correct forum to post. I don't know if you were around, but when Ampage split into a number of forums, it kind of died.

I also don't like it that people designate themselves pseudo-moderators and declare in a respose post that something needs to be moved, like when a topic skirts the edge of DIY but someone deems it not worth (to them) so they just post that it should be moved to the Lounge. I hate that. Splitting the forum would increase this exponentially.

Back to the topic, do people think that the interest in this hobby has moved from those who want to learn to design their own, to those who are just too cheap to buy the pedal they want (or legitimately can't afford to) and just want to be able to build it on the cheap and tweak what they can with no care as to why those changes do what they do?

[markm]

Back to the topic, do people think that the interest in this hobby has moved from those who want to learn to design their own, to those who are just too cheap to buy the pedal they want (or legitimately can't afford to) and just want to be able to build it on the cheap and tweak what they can with no care as to why those changes do what they do?

I think at times we are plagued by those whom expect the instant gratification of posting a question and having there woes eased in one fell swoop.
I've noticed that there are some here that ask fairly easy questions at our board and turn around and become an "expert" on some of the.....shall we say...."lesser BB's" around the net.
It amuses me to see some that are considered "experts" on other boards that are "newbies" here!!
It seems many don't want to read for themselves or actually learn anything about the inner workings of our little projects.
They'd rather just ask here and be done with it.
Me......I wanna KNOW!!

[joegagan]

I have seen the pattern many times before when a popular forum tries to split out into multiple categories. one of two things usually happens:
1. the regulars just keep posting at the most populated forum , life goes on normally except the new 'break out' forums sputter along
2. the forum becomes so scattered that the place feels 'dead' and slowly dies off for real

not that I think that this place could ever die off. I think it feels fun and lively to have a lot of people posting in one main area like it is here

regarding Jay's question, I think the net has reached a critical mass of sorts where the number of guitar players in general is real high. there will always be a certain percentage of those who want to build their own pedal.         The ones who are doing it strictly to save $ are probably a small percentage.      I think most people , once they get into it will have their natural need to grow and learn kick in, and hopefully some of those will also go on to become good modders or designers.

I haven't been on the forum steady enough to spot any trends, except it seems for reasons mentioned in other threads that alot of the established guys are much more reluctant to share intimate details of new circuits

[The Tone God]

I also don't like it that people designate themselves pseudo-moderators and declare in a respose post that something needs to be moved, like when a topic skirts the edge of DIY but someone deems it not worth (to them) so they just post that it should be moved to the Lounge. I hate that. Splitting the forum would increase this exponentially.

Back to the topic, do people think that the interest in this hobby has moved from those who want to learn to design their own, to those who are just too cheap to buy the pedal they want (or legitimately can't afford to) and just want to be able to build it on the cheap and tweak what they can with no care as to why those changes do what they do?

The topic at hand is "Layouts vs. Schematics" so this is thread jacking and OT. Lounge please.

j/k

Andrew

[Ben N]

Well, the thread has sort of meandered a bit. So apologies in advance. In response to Jay's post above, I don't know if you can categorize people as neatly as that. People straddle lines, or maybe ar more on one side of the line for one project and the other side for another. And, they grow--something this forum has excelled at fostering. So, even if it is getting a bit unwieldy at times, I think the big, organic pot is still the best here.

No double meanings intended for "organic pot."

Ben