Buffers and George L's Brass plugs!

[momo]

I always liked that 'brown sound' or if you will a "Jimi"fied tone with a bit of the high end cut off. My gear is all setup to have this tone, here is my signal chain...

62 reissue american strat ,Fender super bullets 011 pure nickel strings,nice fat and warm stock pups, vintage .005 Vintage Grey Tiger wax tone cap, no treble bleed mod, very low capacitance cable(to keep integrity of signal) 680 picofarad for a 20 foot cable!, into pedal board equipped with George L's brass plugs.
So I would like to build a buffer to drive the signal to the amp, but I dont want to reintroduce to much high end to keep the previous tone, so are all buffers the same in the high end? or is there a specific designed buffer that would not mess with my tone?

Thanks for the replies!
Cheers

[momo]

  Sorry for that I think there is a previous post that talks about just that, ill go read it and see if im redundant...sorry about that

[Ben N]

First, a couple of things I don't understand: If you want "Jimified" tone, why the low-capacitance cable? Get yourself a curly, crapy hi-capacitance cable, and be authentic. Second, what do brass plugs have to do with anything?

As far as buffering goes, buffers act as a kind of wall btween what comes before and what comes after. As such, they have two relevant impedance characteristics: output-Z presenting to the next thing in line (your amp, say), and input-Z seen by the thing preceding, like your guitar. When you talk about "reintroducing" high end (preserving, really), that effect results primarily from a high impedance input (500k or greater) interfacing with the high output impedace of a typical guitar pickup. A design using a bipolar transistor or a bipolar-input opamp (like a 4558 or 5332) will typicaly not have that high an input impedance, but will have oodles of current capacity (i.e. low output-Z)to drive your signal to the amp. That "crispiness" is typically associated with a higher impedance JFET or MOSFET input buffer.

Read the article on buffers at AMZ.

Ben

[jonathan perez]

why not just build a fuzz face, for maximum jimi?

wax cap? paper film, maybe?

what amp are you using?

keep in mind, production quality had alot to do with the "cloudy" tones. (electric ladyland.)

[Pushtone]

Check out the Radial PB-1 buffered booster.
It uses something they call Drag Control to roll off the high end the buffer imposes.
Sound just like what you describe. Goes from squeaky clean to "natural" tone to quote their marketing.
http://www.tonebone.com/re-bigshot-pb1.htm

They also make it in a separate and tiny box called Dragster.
http://www.tonebone.com/tb-dragster.htm
The Dragster has been discussed here and it's a super simple circuit that just adds loading as the pot is turned by lowering the input impedance.

I think this Drag circuit is a cool addition to a buffer.

I did my own buffered booster.
First I built a booster and liked how it make my guitar sound.
But when I turned it off the tone would just go flat and too dark from my long pedal chain.
Then I build a buffered booster to solve that problem.

I used a Strat-o-Blaster as the buffer and the Fetzer valve as the booster.
These two are a nice match. This I used as the first pedal in the chain.

I built another buffered boost using the GGG IC buffer and Dragonfys Sparkle Boost.
These two did not match well and someday I plan to add a Drag type thing to the IC buffer.

If your going the buffer only route consider putting it inside an effects loop box to get some more mileage out of it.

[Ben N]

Check out the Radial PB-1 buffered booster.
It uses something they call Drag Control to roll off the high end the buffer imposes.
Sound just like what you describe. Goes from squeaky clean to "natural" tone to quote their marketing.
http://www.tonebone.com/re-bigshot-pb1.htm

They also make it in a separate and tiny box called Dragster.
http://www.tonebone.com/tb-dragster.htm
The Dragster has been discussed here and it's a super simple circuit that just adds loading as the pot is turned by lowering the input impedance.

In a GP column about 26 years ago, Craig Anderton presented a basic on-board guitar preamp along with some simpl tone-shaping ideas, one of which was a switchable resistor to ground at the input.  IIRC, the preamp was a non-inverting 741.

[Mark Hammer]

A) Guys, don't be oo misled by Momo's description.

b) Momo, don't be misled by the tone of initial responses.

Players vary widely in what they want the "default" tone of their instrument to be.  In some cases, a player simply wants to feed the guitar straight into an amp and drive the bejeezus out of the amp, so a slightly filtered "rounder" tone makes the amp behave well.  IN other cases, the player feeds the guitar direct into a clean amp and dials uin as much cleanliness as they can.  Some of those players want the default to be super-crisp, and then dial back the treble on a song-wise basis.  Others want clean but warm, warm, warm, and use the combined rolloffs of the cable, guitar pots, and fixed-rolloff treble control on the amp to achieve the desired response curve,

I suppose you can continue to imagine all the variations.  Then add in pedals, and imagine all THOSE variations.

The point is that what people consider to be a useful default tone...as it comes out of the end of the cable from the guitar...will depend on what you want to achieve with it and how diverse the outcomes are that you want to achieve.  A Hendrix-like tone is but one of those alternatives.  Of course, what people mean by Hendrix-like tone varies too.  It could the thick Univibed "Machine Gun" tone, it could be the woolier "Voodoo Chile" tone, or one of my personal favourite, the ultra-clean "Wait Til Tomorrow" rhythm tone.  All could be correctly classified as a Hendrix tone.

Now, on top of which tone you choose, there is the matter of how you plan to get it.  I'm certain that Voodoo Chile can be achieved with pedals and amp, with pedals alone, and with amp alone.

So, when people start to talk about buffers and target tones, it generally evokes some head-scratching.  Buffers are generally used to preserve bandwidth, so your request to selectively lose bandwidth is a little bit contrary.  I hope you uinderstanding the confusion.

All of that being said, there is nothing wrong with doing what you can to hang onto as much of the signal generated by the pickups as you can when dealing with longer cables.  If you want to be able to assure that 90% of the full bandwidth of the pickups is faithfully transferred, then you can either dump the unwanted 10% at the beginning, in the middle, or at the end.  Other than the cable you describe, there doesn't seem to be anything there at the start that is geared towards the sound you want to nail.  Quite likely you want to use 250k volume pot.   It IS possible to insert either a resistor or cap or both just ahead of the volume put to produce a specific loading effect.  Once you have the tone you want, then just about any buffer will transfer that nicely withiout changing it.  Of course, as some have suggested, maybe what you want is a BAD cable to produce a specific form of treble loss.

[momo]

Hey Guys, first of all, thank you for the replies on what seems a redundant subject.I have no problem for any kind of response as long as its repectful ! Its certainly better than nothing...

So, I don't want to use a crap cable just to Jimify my tone, yes Im aware of there cheap coiled cables and have even paid a heavy price for one on Ebay. The thing is I dont care if that cable is the ticket to get that tone, if the cable breaks after the second song, then is it worth it?!
So I tried to get that tone but with reliable equipment. The Brass plugs have a warmer tone than the much too bright tone of Nickel plated ones for my taste. Of coarse the tone starts at your fingers and go on down the signal chain, the fact that I also have a heavy Alder body with rosewood neck also helps in the warmer tone, then into the warm stock pups, on down to a vintage warm cap. So as far as I know using my good cable only helps to 1:keep that warm tone from the previous mentioned,
2: keeps integrity of the signal with the least interference to the pedalboard.
That goes to a looper for effects and the brass plugs renders the tone a bit smoother if I can use that term. The reason im asking for the buffers is that I dont want to drive that signal to a 30 foot or more guit cable to the amp ,even a good one would be too much tone loss as im already at a certain minimum on the high end.Having my amp 20 feet from me is also not practical, so this is why I want a buffer, to drive long lines without loosing the little high end I have.
In other words, I really love my tone and dont want to degrade it more in the high end because im using a 30 foot or more cable to the amp.

As far as my amp, well you work with what you have....I have a Fender Performer 650... its not the greatest but I learned how to tweek it for a great tone. The clean channel  does react like the old ones as far as working the guitar volume, I dont have the treble bleed mod so I usually work rytym at 8 and lead at 10. That little difference is enough to push the clean channel into slight distortion.So this amp might not be the greatest but it interact great with my setup.
Now for one question on the amp, is it common to match a certain buffer with a specific amp?(you know, the impedence input detail)?
I will read more on these buffers and try to come up with a great solution.
Thanks for all the replies, you guys are great!
cheers

[Ben N]

Thank you for the education on the brass plugs. I wasn't aware of a difference, but I'm not aware of too many things, I know what I know, if you know what I mean...

Being as your buffer is meant to go after your pedals, it would be important to know whether the loop you have them in is itself true bypass, and whether you have any "always on" pedals. If so, it is quite possible that the input impedance of your buffer is pretty much irrelevant.  As to the input of the amp, if you have or know of a posted schematic, that would also help. Most amps have fairly high input impedances, but there are exceptions.

BTW, there is another thread currently about pretty much this topic (buffers, impedance and how much hi-content is too much), with advice from Mr. Orman, so check it out. http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=52755.0;topicseen

[stumper1]

In other words, I really love my tone and dont want to degrade it more in the high end because im using a 30 foot or more cable to the amp.

I guess the big question is:

If you really love your tone, what do you plan on changing in your setup? 

Let me re-phrase that -

How long of a cable do you currently run to the amp?  Do you plan on changing that?  If so, to what?

[jonathan perez]

why do you need a 30 foot cable?

thats a whole lot of mileage...

i dont understand how the tone between brass and nickel cable ends can make a difference.

BTW, with all that warm tone going on, your amp should be ON FIRE! 

[momo]

I have been using a 20 foot cable, the thing is Professionally Im a "sound guy" and having my amp screaming 20 feet from me is not helping my ears, I have always been extremely careful on that, and I have to say, before I did not gig that much with a band,but now its pretty regular and I feel it in my work, I mix music and normal T.V shows and some occasional trailers...I have noticed that I get away faster from the 85dB reference and have to pump up the levels sooner than what I usually do. I tried playing with plugs, good ones that dont filter out the high end and that is really difficult, I feel apart from the band and the groove! So Im basically trying to get a compromise...like our drummer knows my situation and will not smash cymbals if I get close to him to adjust something for instance(rehersal).
I used to do the setup for a big variety show that had new bands every week, we were very strict about stage rules when we were setting up the mics....nothing was to be played by the musicians if a tech guy was onstage adjusting something and only when directed to do so for line checks or rehersals. I had one instant where a kid who decided to test his feedback setup with his guit and amp, problem was I was setting up the amp mic and was hit full on by this huge squeel, I think this kid threw away his undies and began buying adult diapers after that! I will spare you the details, but its milliseconds like that that can render me good for welfare...
Anyhow sorry for getting of topic a bit but its still pertinent, getting the amp farther away!
I certainly dont want to tell you guys what to do but for sure nothing kills your ears more than a loud midrange squeel or cymbal hit!
The "slew rate" of the little hairs in your ears dont react well at all with these hits! and once the hairs are completely horizontal, then thats it,they die instantly (this applies to a very fast rising/midrange/acoustic pressure in the ears cavity).
As to why the brass is warmer,I cannot explain scientifically, but its the same as using pure nickel strings instead of the plated ones.
thanks for your opinions!

[Pushtone]

BTW, there is another thread currently about pretty much this topic (buffers, impedance and how much hi-content is too much), with advice from Mr. Orman, so check it out. http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=52755.0;topicseen

How embarrassing. I'm seen in that post saying the same thing. Just shoot me. 

Anyhow, The variable impedance schem that stm posted here...
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=39559.0
would do the trick! Thanks for reminding me about this topic Ben N. Great responses BTW. 

But does variable impedance with a pot have to be so complicated?
Like Craig Anterton's resistor to ground trick, but with a pot.
Would not a 1meg pot to ground let me dial in anywhere from 0 to 1 meg impedance
if placed before a buffer with a 1 meg input impedance?

Wait don't answer, I'm going to try it.

[rockgardenlove]

Yep, I've got a buffer with a 1m pot in front for just that purpose.  Works good.

[Ben N]

Yeah, sure, I'd think the pot would be fine. Actually, since the real issue is not inut impedance as an absolute value but the relationship of the input impedance to the preceding output impedance, a series 50k wired as a rheostat ought to work, too-like the Fuller Fuzz Face input pot.  Or am I, as usual, way out of my depth? 

[ashcat_lt]

I built a simple opamp buffer from AMZ, replaced 1M resistor with a 5-way rotary which switches between 470K, 1M, 2.5M, 5M, and 10M.  In my setup the difference is so subtle it might as well not even be there.  Even with humbuckers you have to A-B between the two extremes to even notice it's doing anything.  Lower Z would probably be more noticeable than the higher values I chose.