Transistor rumor for building triangle and rams big muff

[msurdin]

Hi,

I was discussing with someone building a rams head or triangle big muff. We got into a big discussion and he told me that I can get the right schematic but it will be about 10% off because the transistors arent the originals. Is this true? Is there a way to get closer without the originals?


Thanks

Matt

[MartyMart]

Hogwash - depends of what trannies were available/their hfe and of course EH just used whatever was in the
parts bin that week !! ( values can be off as far as +/- 20% anyway )
I had good results with 2N5088's compared to a friends "real" triangle but I just didn't like it much !
Gave it to our drummer ( who also plays guitar - shock/horror !! ) 

MM.

[col]

I have had good results with BC184C and BC549C. Also some un-numbered Motorola transistors.

[petemoore]

  You can put just about anything you want.
  You'll probbly want high gain/low noise ones though.
  5088's are a good bet since theyre' found in old BMP's.
  5089's are suitable also.
  BCxxx get good press around here in BMP's.
  3904's...don't really get it going strong and raise noise floor IME.

[AL]

Hogwash - depends of what trannies were available/their hfe and of course EH just used whatever was in the
parts bin that week !! ( values can be off as far as +/- 20% anyway )
I had good results with 2N5088's compared to a friends "real" triangle but I just didn't like it much !
Gave it to our drummer ( who also plays guitar - shock/horror !! ) 

MM.

I agree with that 100%. Especially the drummer thing 

EH used whatever they had lying around - CORRECT !! I have been in a great sounding (to me) Ram's head and it had lower gain trannies (around 100 when measured) - I think they were 2N5133. I preferred these over the higher gains in my NY reissue. But I have talked to several people who have had the opposite experience. I would reccommed sockets for the transistors and swap around until you find the ones that work best for you.

AL

[msurdin]

Thanks for the help guys.

[Dragonfly]

Small Bear carries 2N5133's...theyre "rebuilt" with the original Fairchild parts....Buy a bunch, use sockets, and experiment

[ruispeeds]

Hi,
I've built the rams version and i had good results with BC239C as well with the 2N5088.

[msurdin]

Does the byoc layout get close to the triangle muff? I know it clames to be very close... but how close is it really? 97% or around that?
Any projects for the rams head that gets that close that anyone knows of?

[R.G.]

You have fallen prey to thinking that there is one magic set of components that defines a Muff, even one of a single vintage.

EH would build their stuff from whatever was most cost effectively available. If that meant changing a resistor or cap value or two, so be it. If there was a batch of usable surplus transistors available, so be it. There are even inverted-ground muffs with PNP transistors that have been "captured".

I suspect that if you had the ability to try several triangle muffs, they would vary as much as ram's head muffs, and that the two ranges would overlap.

Don't overthink this.

[msurdin]

So are you saying my triangle vs "fred's" triangle could sound different? Same with "Fred's" Rams head? and so on?

[oldrocker]

You got it.   When I first built mine I thought the same thing and wanted a stock BMP so it would sound like the one I had when I was a teen.(That was a long time ago.)  Come to find out I'm not sure which circuit was in the one I had back then.  It might even had been an opamp version for all I know.  The other guitarist had a BMP too and I remember a side by side comparison and mine didn't sound as good as his but I couldn't put my finger on it.

[Skreddy]

Does the byoc layout get close to the triangle muff? I know it clames to be very close... but how close is it really? 97% or around that?
Any projects for the rams head that gets that close that anyone knows of?

I've read that the Large Beaver is missing a couple of components that EH BMP's always had (at least holes for) onboard.  They are the negative-feedback-filter capacitor (commonly 470pf but often listed as 500pf or even 560pf on many schematics) on Q1 and the base-to-ground bias resistor on Q2 (generally 100k, sometimes 82k and as low as 56k in a rams head version). 

(missing components in grey)


These will have to be added in a makeshift manner if you're using the BYOC circuitboard.  I've seen somebody there at the BYOC discussion board who's posted a diagram of where to add these to the Large Beaver layout.  If you're using someone else's layout, those components will likely be included already.  I think CallMeRog has this info on this thread:
http://board.buildyourownclone.com/viewtopic.php?t=5449

As for how close it sounds, that's purely subjective.  It seems not many folks are familiar with how a triangle-knob really does sound, unfortunately.  Here's a quick (really crappy in fact) clip of an old triangle knob I made recently (sorry, just some soloing, no chords)...
http://skreddypedals.com/circuits/ElectroHarmonix/TriangleKnob.mp3

I don't have any BYOC clips, but they're around. 

[goosonique]

Good one Skreddy >>> i have seen your wonderful creations  ...Yes the BMP is a higly tweakable circuit all the way from front to end. Given time, diff transistor choice or tweaking the tone stack gives a spectrum tone madness.
Please do not get hyped abt the *secret receipe* as you will be dissapointed ...just go with your ears and a couple of your buddies' maybe ...rock on!

That base-to-ground bias resistor on Q2 ~ 100k is dependant on the transistor of choice >>> i leave em out as well !
I spend more time tweaking with diff transistor types (mismatch diff types) and the tone stack to get what i want and its also cool to hear each stage while building >>> learn heaps that way!!

I only have a DIY BMP on my pedal board ...no ts no fuzz face 

[Skreddy]

Here's a schematic of an unusual rams head (it uses germanium clipping diodes)...  Please note that all capacitors are ceramic disk type except for the 10uf which are electrolytic.  The more common configuration for a rams head is to use 2N5087 (PNP) transistors (and positive ground power), but obviously some of them used 2N5133s like many of the triangle knobs.


And here's a sound clip of that pedal:
http://skreddypedals.com/circuits/ElectroHarmonix/RamsHead.mp3