Pedal designs between Big Muff and Rat

[OscarMeat]

Hello there!

I'm getting a bit frustrated with my distorted guitar sounds. Let me explain...

I'm playing heavy, groovy rock...alá Katatonia-Black Sabbath. My guitars are alnico humbucker fitted SGs, in C-tuning(.12-.58 strings).
I play an Ampeg V-4 thru open-back 2x12", (EV speakers) cab.
I want this great creamy, fuzz sound that would have also chord definition and not that midrange scoop found in every other metal guitar tones.

I've been thru a lot of different pedal designs, and the next thing is that i'll make an testbench to my practice room to test everything on the fly.
But before that i thought i'd ask some ideas about where to start.

So input needed.

[Mark Hammer]

If you go to AMZ (www.muzique.com), Jack Orman has a number of articles on shaping the tone of both the BMP and Rat.  Part of what you appear to dislike is the way that the stock pedals shape the tone.  For instance, the Big Muff has a midscoop built into it.  It may actually produce a tone you DO like simply by changing a few component values.  Read the articles in his Lab Notes section first, think it over, and then ponder your choices.

[DougH]

Should I think it over and ponder? Or can I either think it over or ponder?

[Mark Hammer]

I suppose you can wait here in the sitting room, or sit here in the waiting room.  Here, put your feet up by the cellophane.

(hmm, too obsure for folks under 50?)

[chris84]

That sounds like a Groucho line there, Mr Hammer...

[Mark Hammer]

Nope.  It's Firesign Theatre ("The Further Adventures of Nick Danger, 3rd Eye") from 1969's "How Can You Be in Two Places at Once When You're Not Anywhere at All?", that point in history when the differences between major hallucinogens and comedy records was very marginal indeed, and unmedicated schizophrenics could get gainful employment.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firesign_Theatre  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Can_You_Be_in_Two_Places_at_Once_When_You%27re_Not_Anywhere_at_All 

The voice of Nick Danger (FT member Phil Austin) eventually became the voice of The Tick in the animated series.  The quote is from Betty-Jo Bialowski's (AKA Nancy, Melanie Haber, Audrey Farber, Susan Underhill) butler Catherwood.  It's at 8:08 in here:  http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=q5XfXECpU6w
If you get engrossed it continues here:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=200erlAHzU8&feature=related
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=hEltFvygT0c&feature=related

The live 1972 performance of "Martian Space Party" is probably more indicative of how relentlessly brilliant and demented these guys are/were. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSdiamY77c

But I suspect you're right about Groucho's influence.  Many of his classic "speeches" in assorted Marx Bros films have those quick unexpected but superficially logical reversals of terms that elicit "What?  What did he just say?" reactions from others.  Firesign Theatre recordings and performances often feel like one long Groucho Marx monologue at lightspeed....on drugs.

[StickMan]

I have trouble picturing any Rat getting a "creamy fuzz sound".  Those short-to-ground clipping diodes driven by that really crappy op amp are pretty much guaranteed to result in a tone that is all bite. 

Seems to me that a BMP has to be the way to go, since it's probably the box that was used on the original recordings anyways.

[Mark Hammer]

The creaminess of a Rat is very easy to alter.  Indeed, I find mine not fierce enough.

The simplest modification is to increase the value of the tone/filter cap from .0022uf to .0033uf (which some schematics already do) or higher (I wouldn't go past .0047 myself).  The second mod is to increase the value of the 100pf feedback cap to anything up to and including 330pf, though 220pf is probably optimal.

Can you get "creamy fuzz" and "note definition"?  Beats the hell out of me.  I see this description in Guitar Player all the time, and I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, or whether it corresponds to anything that might conceivably be part of distortion design.  If you pick cleanly, into an instrument that provides good note definition, and you don't have too much distortion to pervert the harmonic content of the notes picked, and you have an amp and speakers that also present a clear sound, then you will have good note definition.  If you boost the bejeezus out of the signal so that every damn harmonic is generating its own harmonics (and the Rat applies a max gain of over 2100x to content above 1.5khz), I don't know why you might expect the note definition to be all that great.

I'm not saying you can't get note definition AND some grit, but don't expect to use a pedal that adds tons of harmonic content, and lots of output, feed that into a cranked amp, and expect to still get it.  If you add a modest amount of coloration to the tone of the input signal and crank the amp then maybe, but few if any pedals - dimed - will do that.

[MartyMart]

Rat and cream doesn't taste very nice, Rat hotpot is quite good though with enough spice thrown in !!

Seriously, it's another use of the english language that just confuses and baffles us every time ...
For me personally, "Creamy distortion" is a good valve amp saturating with a LOT of top end rolled out
"thick and creamy" in that context makes sense to me, a Big Muff can certainly get in that area with some
tweaks and tone rolled below 12 0'clock.
MM.

[petemoore]

  "Will make your amp sing"..I always got a kick out of that one:
  Will [or won't]
  Make [takes more than a dirt box to make singing amp]
  Your [like we know what your amp is]
  Amp [could be headphone amp driving 2'' audio monitor component]
  Sing [You can pull the ad for 'singer needed' now]
  Sorry had to..
  The deal about the Muff...[and there's tonzo muffmods so excuse any duplicity on my part] is why not roll the bass off harder at the input for less 'swamping' through the circuit, leaving as much as you can stand, that way less amping/cutting/amping of the bass would happen [you could reduce bass rolloff toward the end to let the 'regrown' bass get enough bass out], if I wanted tighter bass I'd probably try that.
  Then maybe do the opposite to the HF's, let them input stronger, so they can have all the heavier diode hash added right up front and at each stage, then roll that complex mid/Hf content down to a smoother grind at the output.