vibrato suggestions

[mills]

Hi again,

I'm looking to make a vibrato pedal... I don't need the chorus option on it, and I'd like to fit it into a small-ish sized box (don't remember the size names).  I want the expected rate and depth controls, but was curious about a delay time... would that even work, or be useful on a vibrato?  I enjoy it on the choralflange I use, but am not sure if its worth the space/effort in something like this.

The main thing I wondered is what circuit I should use?  I'm not looking to reproduce any sound too significantly (ie not necessarily a univibe/VB-2), although the pitch pirate vibrato samples I heard pretty much sounded like what I was thinking.  I think that I probably want to be able to have it go really slow more than really fast, and probably pretty deep if thats doable.  Would a small clone be a good starting point to meet those requirements or be mod'd to meet them?  any other thoughts/suggestions/alternatives?

And finally (and just kinda thinking out loud), I'm slightly unclear on the exact way that this is supposed to work, but essentially we have an LFO varying the delay time creating pitch changes?  This should mean that there's no way to have a stationary pitch change without going digital?  As in I couldn't ever have an expression pedal or pot to slightly up/downtune what I'm playing even if I'm not looking for a specific interval, just an out of tune sound?

[MartyMart]

I would try the Tonepad Chorral Chorus - a CE-2 which has a vibrato mod on a toggle switch.
It's pretty decent and there's a balance mod pot also, so you get a few nice options.
You dont 'have' to use the chorus - but it's there .... just in case !
Other things like the P45 with vibtaro mod are more subtle, the Tonepad version is more extreme as
it's based on chorus rather than phase, works better IMO
Another option which sounds GREAT is a Behringer UV300 ultra vibrato - a VB-2 clone for £18 !!!
You could re-house one in an old Boss enclosure and use better I/O jacks etc ..... good little project too!
MM.

[Mark Hammer]

As Marty notes, it could be a chorus with the dry signal lifted, but it could also be a phaser with the dry signal lifted.  Either will do.  For phaser-type, the more stages the more wobble.  For chorus, the longer the basic time delay, the more wobble.  In either case, you'll want to reduce the width of the sweep a bit from what normally works for phasing or chorus.  That can be as simple as sticking a fixed resistor in series with the input of the "depth" pot to mimic a pot that can neverbe tuirned up full.

I tried out a UV300, and had very high hopes for it, especially at that price.  I ended up being rather underwhelmed.  The delay option that gradually increases the amount of modulation (to mimic the way vibrato sneaks into a vocal note as its held) was not particularly striking, either in the slope of that fade in, or the range of fade-in times available.  Not nearly gradual enough for my tastes to be believable.  Given that the fade-in was pretty much useless for me, I could see no advantage to owning one of these in addition to the various chorus and phaser pedals I have with vibrato option.

[mills]

Thanks for the suggestions, I think that the CE-2 clone sounds a little closer to what I was thinking about.  In the end I'm planning on using this on a bass so the mods on the tonepad site with some socketing should be glorious...  hours of fun!

Slightly curious though, when there's the talk about the VB-2's ramp up mode, is it the depth or the speed that ramps up or do I understand that wrong entirely?

[zeta55]

Thanks for the suggestions, I think that the CE-2 clone sounds a little closer to what I was thinking about.  In the end I'm planning on using this on a bass so the mods on the tonepad site with some socketing should be glorious...  hours of fun!

Slightly curious though, when there's the talk about the VB-2's ramp up mode, is it the depth or the speed that ramps up or do I understand that wrong entirely?

It's like the depth that gets ramped up. In ramp mode with the momentary switch open, it sounds as the effect is bypassed. Close it and the modulation of the sound gets going over a period of time, due to the setting of the ramp pot.

/Krister

[mills]

That sounds about like what I'd thought...  I'd been debting trying to figure out a CV input (switchable...) for the depth control and I'd say that makes it not sound like such a crazy idea.

[Mark Hammer]

Building a vibrato effect into a wah/volume pedal shell that allows one to fade in vibrato depth on demand would make a really nice pedal for performance purposes.  Given that a great many such shells (particularly if they are from a busted...anything) come with pots of a suitable value that you could just install the circuit and sub the foot-controlled pot for the regular panel-mount one.  The "deluxe" model, of course, would go a little further in mimicking vocal vibrato by increasing both the depth and speed as one moved the treadle.  My sense is that a more pleasing effect would come through having foot movement create more change in depth than in speed (i.e., very modest increase in speed).  The "ultra-deluxe" model has three parameters under control: volume, vibrato depth, vibrato speed.  So, the same way a singer gradually introduces and holds a note, only to have their voice slightly weaken and translate into more vibrato, and more rapid "flutter", as one would move the pedal treadle forward, the volume increases a bit (perhaps from silent fade-in, if one chose to do so), and the vibrato gets introduced.

Since true human vocal vibrato is a by-product of holding a note past the point of vocal-tract stability (and I'm ignoring, for the moment, the Buffy St-Maries and Lola Hethertons of the world who deliberately impose vibrato), the requirement is that the to-be-vibratoed note itself have some sort of long or long-ish sustain.  I guess the textbook example would be the Santana-style held note, or chords used as an equivalent to a keyboard "pad".  In cases where bass is operating or being used in its normal fashion (and we will set aside melodic Jaco Pastorius-type usage for the moment), my guess is that notes would not be held so long as to make the fade-in all that practical or frequently used.  More likely, only variable depth would be employed (no volume fade-in), and perhaps only over the course of a phrase or solo, rather than during a held note (i.e., the vibrato becomes more obvious as the solo/phrase progresses).

[mills]

Allright, so I have a GGG enclosure, and the rest of the parts that I ordered from smallbear should be here this week, so I dug up this thread to comment and ask a question or two...

What I have planned so far is a CE-2 based vibe, and I think probably a delay time switch would be a good addition.  I'll probably toss a vibe/chorus switch on, and I may use the other half od a DPDT switch to do the clean bass mod when in chorus mode (I want wavy nausea when in vibe mode).  Pretty much going to build it stock with about 3 caps socketed so I can mess around with the delay times and the vibe's filter section and decide what I like.

Here's where the questions come in...

First, the easy one.  Is there a reason that in these chorus builds I seem to see a lot of delay time switches and very few pots (I'd guess that one could do it like the fuzzface input cap blend mod?)?  Or is it just a case where one wants a set level and less tweaking more often then not?

Second, I'd like to put a CV input on this vibe to control the depth, but keep the pot function when its not.  And, I'd like to be able to use my CV expresison pedal or my moogerfooger cp251 to control it... so basically what I want, is anything from 0-9 or more likely 0-5 volts plugged in will change the depth of the vibrato.  I'd read a few posts about this, one from mark hammer in particular discussing using an LED/LDR and how it was the simplest solution.  I'm not 100% clear on this, but as 0-5V seems like a higher range than an LED is expecting, do I just throw a resistor after the CV input to drop the voltage provided to a useable range?  Or would there be a more elegant and better way to go about doing this?  (also, I do know that a simple expression pedal out would be easier, but I like all the CV inputs and random connectivity that I'm working towards in my rig)

Thanks for the help guys...

[signalpaths]

There is a real easy mod for a phase 90 to make it into a uni-vibe sound-alike in Brian's (indi-guitarist) how to modify pedals book.  If you join his mailing list and become a member(it's free) you can purchase the book for half price like 15$. You even get a few free mods just for signing up to the mailing list.  In the book there are mods for like 80 different pedals (including the Phase 90-univibe mod), all in all a pretty good deal.   A good used phase 90 can be had for the price of 50$.  You could even buy a cheap used or broken wah pedal and turn it into an expression pedal for the rate control and viola a uni-vibe for under 100$.  I love the sound of mine thick and swirling, sounds very similar to my organs Leslie.  I love this mod!! thanks to Brain


ERic T

[mills]

Thanks for the suggestion... I'm not really trying to do the leslie-ish vibe thing (i think there's a difference) but more of the seasick horrible pitch warbles kind of sound.  I think a lot of what I read on here suggested the chorus was a better starting point.  (plus I've got a tonepad board and all the parts so I'm probably not going to look for the phase 90). 

I bought the indyguitarist book a while back though, and its great... so much easier to mod an already housed pedal than to worry about drilling or ordering customized enclosures.

[oldrocker]

The John Hollis Easy Vibe has a nice toggle for vibrato that I use all the time.