Newbie with a POD

[Magnus290]

Hi Guys!

A first timer here,a coverband player from sweden. Playing with a Line6 variax and a POD. I know that a lot of people have thoughts of line 6 stuff but It works almoust perfectly well with my coverband, one stomp at a button takes me from acoustic guitar to raw heavy metal with a Lespaul simulation and thats the flexibility I need. Nuff said....  

I am thinkin of upgrading my pod to a new POD X3 Live and that will give me a pre amp loop... DIY I think.... I have built som studioelectronics, gyraf SSL clon and the calrec eq and 2 Urei 1176 clons and a friend and I have built a midi swicher for my former tube head and a midi controller board but no stomp boxes....

The problem with the POD loop is that it is line level and wrong impedance for a usual stompbox and it ends up with lot of noice and a bad sounding system, at least with overdrive and dist boxes. I was thinking about building a screamer clone with a line level op amp based input buffer to get it to work with my POD. If this would work maybe even a distorsion of some kind of compressor and a midi switching system for the stomp boxes.

Do you think that this would make something possitive about my guitar sound or should I leave my ideas at the writing board.

I guess that the tone shaping at the dist/overdrive boxes is at the gain/diod stage and the filters rather than the input and output buffers. Is this correct?

Would be nice to build some nice stomps and mod them for line level signal to be able to create a nicer sounding stomp rather than the thin sounding digital ones in the pod. But I need the digital variax variation and  I like a non microphonic noiceless guitar so I cant use any stomps before the POD and I am stuck with line6 fot the variax switching ( quite happy with it also)  I need the POD internal pre loop so plese tell me that some DIY line level stomps will do the trick.



Best regards // Magnus - sweden

[Magnus290]

Anyone in the same situation?? Want to use regular stompboxes in combination with the digital world.

Come on guys is it worth the effort?? Should I start to ordering stuff or is it a bad idea?



// Magnus

[petemoore]

Anyone in the same situation?? Want to use regular stompboxes in combination with the digital world.
  ...ok...I was...
Come on guys is it worth the effort?? Should I start to ordering stuff or is it a bad idea?
  Here's what I 'think'...as alwasy YMMV...
  Use the digital interfaces.
  Or dump the digital...that's what I did...whew...
  But I had RP100 etc. besides what I couldn't dial in, I couldn't dial out the digitally-ness, and there could be long times with no signal output if echo or verb or whatever...it'd wait until the processor was done with whatever [which means a second or two of silence when effect switching]...gone was much better.
  But the sound...can be cool, dude had a thou-dollar unit that was pretty dern impressive, the impression I was left with was: 'it faded'...he was trying to trade the junk for a Aniv-Strat, I offered him 50 cents for it, he tried to look shocked...was kinda funny.
  So...spend more you get more...but I like the contracts I have with my stompboxes much better than any bought warranty, we have an agreement if they break I replace or repair them...plus..they don't seem to break much, and once fixed are even better [ie can be fixed or replaced easily enough, before then or then they're super-reliable]. I had no such luck with digital switches and the troubli-matic jacks in PCB's.
  I didn't notice digital's ability to create the complex distortion algorythms associated with the interactions between speaker/tubes/transformers/power supply...at least not in 'real time', and to the extent others seem to feel digital is capable of...it's either a lower resolution approximation or there's a time lag...again in my slightly limited EXP...and I'm not about to be spending 1000+ on something with jacks in PCB's, just to find out if I'm wrong.

[Magnus290]

Hi Pete!

My band is playing live about 25 night a year and I used to carry a swedish elmwood tube amp, 4x12, and my fx rig and a les paul but I never got the time to soundcheck ( people were eating and stuff like that) and get the mics in right position so I almost always got a bad sound in the PA, even if I loved what I got from my guitar rig. The soloution for me was to get digital, If you can handle a pod ( I dont say I can) you can get them to sound good and the variax is 25 guitar in one with a stomp of a button. The sound of the variax, strat for example is not as good as the best strat but its deffinitly better than a medium so it works for me, havn´t used my other USA strats and les paul custom -73 since. I love a guitar with hi gain and no noice. But you have to get the electronics a guitar to work in... transplant the body and neck to make it feel like a real guitar.
Ok... I got a lightwight easy to use rig now ( dosen´t fall in every ones taste but I like it  )

I also like DIY so here is where the stomps boxes kicks in..... Im wonna go for a line level screamer clone to start with. OPA 2132 based input and output buffer, maybe even for drive/clipping stage. Any thoughts about that. Is it possible to get such a device to scream??

// Magnus

[earthtonesaudio]

If you already have a line level signal (assuming the out/in of the fx loop on your pod is buffered and nice), then a lot of DIY effects will be easier to implement.  For example, you could probably leave out the input/output buffers on a Tube Screamer and just build the core of it.  You can also afford to reduce input impedance which may reduce noise somewhat. 

...On the other hand, some effects won't work as well with line level signals.  I'd stay away from Fuzz Faces, for one thing.

Good luck!

[frequencycentral]

My take:

What's happening in the guitar world now happened 25 years ago in the synth world - go digital they said, so we did. We sold off our clunky analogue synths real cheap and replaced them with nice shiny digital stuff. Thousands of mediocre sounds at the touch of a button instead of just one insanely wonderful sound.

So we found that the old stuff sounded better - meatier - grittier.

The same happened when solid state amps came along - cheaper - dependable - reliable. Valves got sidelined for a while - but not for long.

The other guitarist in my band has three £1000 guitars, and a £1000 Crate head/4x12. In the middle he has a Line 6 Pod XT Live. He runs this into the clean channel of his crate, setting the volume at about '1' or less. I don't get it, I can hear the zeros and ones. He loves playing through my rig (cranked up valves), but loves the convenience of his Pod. For sure he has more sounds at his disposal. Thousands of mediocre sounds at the touch of a button instead of just one insanely wonderful sound.

It makes me giggle when he gets out the user manual to the Pod, hits a dozen buttons and peers into the LCD display - reminds me of my Yamahahaha DX7 way back when.

Manufacturers manufacture - thats what they do - they hype to sell their stuff - they have to keep diversifying to survive.

But a mean guitar and overdriven valves - that's already been invented.

[petemoore]

  TS was found useful in the effects loop of a Beheringer 2x12 processor-amp.
  That amp alone had Big, Clean, luschious Fender type tone to write home about, worth hauling just for that...course...he don't play that [Greg].
  He plays distortion, and right after that got a Classic 30 [which works 'right' when driving 2x12's, the 1x12'' needed the other speaker to get nice distortion happnin']...@@R@te...it was what I'd call typical tubes run circles around the digital.
  Like every other Digi-thing, trying to dial in a huge distortion type amp sound, while having dialed out the 'digitali-ness' of it was like pushing rope uphill...
  But that's only 'that' type of distortion.
  The other exp.s I have is walking into a venue, hearing a super tone, and being surprized to see it's 'a digital ___' providing it.
  Other other exp.s [pretty common] is walking in a venue and ID-ing for sure the digitalli-ness which I can then go verify by sight...trying to push rope uphill as it were...
  And that's my little viewpoint...the experiences I've had are that:
  Tube amps can sound wrong, ok, close, pretty good, right, over the top, or terrible.
  If you're after a distortion tone, you have to work for it. 'Tube Amp' isn't enough to work it. Simple tube amp and lotsa pedals...if everythings tweeked...yes.
  or a Complex tube amp that is 'fit'...tailored to do "X" thing at certain volume [maybe...I've played 'switchey' tube amps that...made good tone set 'this' way, maybe 1 different tone thats near as good...maybe/doubtful IME].
  If like me, I had just tube amp for long time, then 'a' distorter at a time for long periods [DIST+ For 12 years], and in retrospect, it really was rarely 'it'...usually it was not distorted enough/too loud or...not voiced right...exhibiting less than stellar tonal behaviours.
  Then I started building and dialing in and re-arranging, and re-tweeking modified pedals and amps...doin' good now.
  For starters, I can solidly recommend and have some interest in getting a digital amp...tons of features and the tones are all figured out...pretty much does everything it does best with a guitar and cable...all that other pedal stuff is what it was designed to not need, they seem to do better without analog pedals trying to help.

[Magnus290]

Hi guys!

I had this amp: http://www.elmwood.se/pdf/Review_elmwood_mm.pdf
an elmwood 4x12 cabinet
a Les paul custom 1973 with rio grande picups
A TC electronic G-major in the loop
a rig worth about 10000$ in sweden. It was a wonderful rig that sounded awesome but didnt fulfil my needs. I need the flexibility. And a wonderful rig doesnt sond better in the PA than the sound that comes into the mic (if the mic is in the right place) wich often gave me a bad sound in the PA.... I loved that rig ... no arguments there...

But  now I want to do some line level DIY pedals.... thats what I want to discuss with you guys....

Is the I/O buffers doing somthing with the sound or is the sound shaped in the clipping stage and with the filters?? thats my first need to know question?

I was thinking about a buffer based on a burr brown OPA 2132 with none or at least very little coloration and let the buffer control so I can get the right level to the clipping stage. Then work with all the mods thats in here to get the stomp to sound the way I want. Do any of you know if this kind of solution has a bad effect of the sound from the stomp??

// Magnus

[MadMac]

Hey Cool Thread.

+1 totally agree with the tube fan boys - wait a minute I'm one of those!! 

as for trying to do what you want maybe have a look at building this http://www.runoffgroove.com/condor.html

You should keep in mind though that this project was designed for recording or as a headphone style unit.   I have no idea how it would work or sound live - I've not built it and personally I prefer using real tube amps.

Maybe Im just old school or narrow minded but I would still need ALOT of convincing to leave my tube amps at home in favor of POD.  The dynamic response of tube amp is simply - like nothing else I've heard -
as far POD nailing that same mojo/dynamic response/feel of a tube amp it - well I think they are getting better no where near where they need to be sound quality wise.

But I understand why people use pods - going for the whole convenience factor - although not easy to dial in all the good tones initially and also makes you dependent of the sound guy & fold back -ewww but a heck of lot easier to carry around!!

[petemoore]

  Jheezz that's lotsa amp ages, 13 tubes...oughtta getcha through.
  I'd like scale that back to say 4 or 7 tubes [including TC, Reverb, Output and Recto].
  SE amps are great cause you don't have that phase thing to worry about.
  As far as fancy tube pre-amps [eh...about the same...if tuned right.
  But I prefer doing most of that 'gain meets threshold of clipping meets frequency' tuning @ 9v.
  I've had to do it to great improvement on the 5e3's, [silly amounts of bass as shown in schematic, smaller interstage caps fixes that right up, but I did other mods], but prefer just building the amp with the right amount of bass response and output for the speaker and... adn and..on and on and on.
  Basically I like to get the amp workin' right [biased], then get close to 'what' with it as far as bass response [haven't had trouble yet turning down the treble with the TC's].
  Then work the real 'fine tune' magic @9v. Cheaper, easier, safer...and wide varieties of tonal pleasures abound if you know how to pick and use and tweek and mod 'em.
  First, having basic tube pre, tube output, you'll be able to get yer basic tube-honk tone, clean exept the output section [which needs 'pushed' to become less than clean] is mostly what I'm talking about.
  Then you stick Jfet gain stage #1 between guitar and amp, it can work a whole lot like a non-distorting tube gain stage, driving the subsequent stages into the distortion they produce when the input is boosted.
  Takes some getting used to already [to use those tones] and playing styles should be different [for best results] than say a 'distortion tone' amp channel, like learning to ride a trotter so to speak, when all you've ever ridden is racehorses.
  Then you put a Fuzz in the mix. or a distorter, and the problems arise, too much bass for HB's, too much highs for the amp [examples]...and the fun begins.
  Pretty soon you're familiar with 'gain up to clip down' and have frequency compensated boosted signal levels [via gain or gain/distortion stages] pushing the amp or other gain/distortion stages...all tuned up...almost...too much dialing probably for one thing...
  Then you know what you want and either build it or get really good versatility [but not quite as optimum as possible with second draft would be able to do without a buncha knob tweeking]...maybe it's a big pedalboard and it takes some toe tapping, but your big 1, 2, 3, punch and gain level settings [functions a channel switching amp might call channel switching]...fairly long road to get everything the way you want it after you got pretty close...it's like that...trying to hit the target tones...you gotta pitch a few and see where that goes, then adjust...
  After all that typing which equates to months/years of work [if you were to say DIY the amps and boxes and...], digital flexibility starts sounding really great, once again !
  Anyway I pretty much got all that going, and there's no confusing a Corvette with a Skylark...hope this isn't too useful really, I kind of like that you like the flexibility you have, and know if you're like me and start with this building circuits thing, your music learning curve will suffer while making the transition.
  I saw 'How It's Made" making a tube amp...looks like it took 'em 10 minutes...sure lotsa behind the scenes, but just the board populator...whew...took about 1/100th or less time than I do.
  I like the 'aged beef' style amp builds, simple meat'n potatoes amps, about the right size, like how old Fenders were put together, all moddable and super durable.