Quick DS-1 Mod question

[AFF]

This may be a quick and easy fix ... at least I hope.

Okay I modded my ds-1 and it came out pretty good. I lost a little bit of something and I am not sure what. The best way to describe would be it takes a little more to make it get to the sweet spot than what I was hoping.

I used a 5mm LED in the D4 position and a 1n4001 in the D5 position. It gives a nice modern tube gain sound from the little orange guy but it takes a little more push to get it where I want.

I am thinking of two things ...
1. Should I go ahead and replace the larger 5mm LED (clear/blue) with a red, green, yellow, or orange 3mm LED. Probably red or green because yellow would take to much push to get where I want it and orange is not as common as the other three LEDs.
2. Should I leave the 5mm LED and add the other 3mm LED? If I do that how would I accomplish this? Can I solder the new one's neg leg to the 5mm's positive leg? Should I remove the positive side of the 5mm and then place the positive side of 3mm in and solder them together. Or 3mm Neg*Pos 5mm pos Neg???

I need some help. I am sure someone knows what I am talking about. I can offer more detail if you need. I will send you my mod parts list in PM if you need me to. Thank you so much.

Thanks for everyone's help ... with all the help I think I would have stuck my soldering iron through my eyes already.

I am learning more and more each day so I should hopefully only have to ask a few questions.

Thanks
AFF

[BAARON]

It's the forward voltage of the LED that matters... not the colour, afaik.  I have a large collection of LEDs that I use for clipping diodes and I use a DMM (digital multimeter) to measure the voltage drop of every LED I buy... then I sort them by voltage, rather than by colour.  I can assure you that there are many colours of LED in every bag I have.

Changing colour of LED will thus not make much of a difference.

If you change the 1N4001 to an LED, you're going to end up with an even cleaner pedal.  It'll be louder, but not as distorted.  Judging from what you're describing wanting, I don't think that's going to help you out much.

Guide:
Germanium diodes clip at ~0.3 volts.  Smooth, saturated distortion.
Silicon diodes clip at ~0.6-0.7 v.  Crisp, harsher distortion.
LEDs clip at ~1.5-2.1 v.  Clearer, smoother distortion with a lot of dynamic range.

Higher clipping voltage = less distortion, more dynamic control.  Lower clipping voltage = more distortion, more compressed.

[Vitrolin]

or stay with the mod you made and smack a booster in front and you'll get alot more gain out of it
and if you let the led show on the enclosure it'll light up as you play

[AFF]

Thank you I really appreciate that.

Let me know if this sound right.

I placed an LED in D4 so that it would be more open or tube like. I then put the 1N4001 to distort the signal even more.

What type of tone do you think I would hear if I reverse D4 and D5 ... what I mean is put the 1N4001 in d4 and LED in d5?

I like the tone that is has because it has the sound of a well balanced mesa recto amp. The mids sound scooped but you can hear they are still in the mix (unlike more modern scooped mids sound.) The highs are just enough and the bass follows through the whole tone knob but does not overwhelm.

Okay BAARON I reread your guide and I think I am going to switch the two around. This is my theory (please be kind if I am wrong)
If I distort  the signal sooner (d4 with a 1N4001) I will have a harsher sound that will then pass through the more "open" and dynamic sounding LED. Since it is a smoother sounding clip it should act more like the dsitortion of a tube amp and soften the edges of the now square signal???


Last question ... for awhile I hope.
I know that some of the LEDs I bought said that the 3mm should operate at a lower rating. Without using a meter do you think that 3mm use less energey than a 5 mm?

[ppatchmods]

in all the ds-1 mods i have done, i put the led in d5. it has plenty of gain to spare IMO. try it and see.

[Vitrolin]

size doesn't matter..................when talking about leds

[BAARON]

What type of tone do you think I would hear if I reverse D4 and D5 ...

Okay BAARON I reread your guide and I think I am going to switch the two around. This is my theory (please be kind if I am wrong)
If I distort  the signal sooner (d4 with a 1N4001) I will have a harsher sound that will then pass through the more "open" and dynamic sounding LED. Since it is a smoother sounding clip it should act more like the dsitortion of a tube amp and soften the edges of the now square signal???

I know that some of the LEDs I bought said that the 3mm should operate at a lower rating. Without using a meter do you think that 3mm use less energey than a 5 mm?

Keep in mind that power always flows from a higher to a lower voltage, as far as conventional electronics is concerned.  (Technically, the electrons flow in the opposite direction, but just pretend they don't.)

Think of a sound wave: it swings positive and negative past a central point (zero volts, to make things easy to understand).  When there is no signal, the voltage that D4 and D5 see is... 0 v.  When you play your guitar, you get a wave of some sort: a signal swinging from about +4.5v to -4.5v (the limits of an ideal op-amp running off a 9v supply).

• When the voltage swings positive and surpasses the "forward voltage" of the diode pointing to ground, everything in excess of the diode's voltage drop flows to ground (the 4.5v signal tries to get to the 0v spot... ground.  So if that's a silicon diode, everything about ~0.7 volts flows to ground.  Only the remaining 0.7v manages to sneak past.)
• When the voltage of your signal swings negative and exceeds the forward voltage of the diode pointing AWAY from ground, it pulls power up from ground (a source of free electrons) through that diode, clipping everything in excess of its voltage drop.  (Remember, if the output of the op-amp is -4.5v and power always flows toward the lowest voltage point, that means that power will actually flow from ground (0v) TO the -4.5v point.  Thus, everything in excess of that diode's voltage drop gets clipped too.)

(Technical details: actually, the idle point for the clipping diodes in a DS-1 is 4.5v and the signal swings from 0v-9v, but it works the same way.)

D4 and D5 are in parallel.  The electrons don't see either of them as being "first," the electrons see the diodes being side by side, like a fork in the road.  One diode clips one half of the signal (the positive half), the other clips the other half (the negative half), because they are pointing in opposite directions.  Therefore, order doesn't matter when they're in parallel like that, so it doesn't matter which diode goes in which spot as long as they're pointing opposite directions.

The half of the signal being clipped by the LED is being gently clipped at about 1.7-1.8 volts, with the clipping being a bit rounded off.  The other half of the signal is being hard clipped at about 0.6-0.7 volts, with little to no rounding of the corners (because that's Silicon for ya).  In the case of the DS-1, which half gets clipped by either makes no audible difference unless you have superhuman powers or are extremely suggestible.

3mm vs 5mm: my guess is the package meant it doesn't need as much CURRENT to light up as an average LED, so it's more power efficient if paired with a proper current-limiting resistor, BUT!  Current isn't what we're looking at with diode clipping: all we really care about is the voltage drop of the diode.  If you were to measure those 3mm LEDs, you might find that they clip at 1.5 or 1.6 volts instead of 1.7 or 1.8, but in the grand scheme of things, there's very little audible difference in that 12% difference.

[ppatchmods]

(just to state the obvious) does the led light up when pushed with gain? if not, it needs to be turned the other way.

[AFF]

ppatchmods it does light when I send it a signal (strumming a note). But unlike the Keeley mod it does not stay lit all the time. I am almost certain now it is because there is a resistor than I need to raise the value to. I say resistor because as I understand it ... resistors would allow or restrict the power needed to "light" the LED. Caps would really on work more along the lines of freq regulators??? Although and I know I could be wrong but I think it must depend on where in the circuit it is located. But I am still a little confused. I can change a few resistors like the FAT Mod and beef up the tone. But I have also be told that the caps play a part in the freq filtering also ... or do they work together for this?

Thank you BAARON ... wow that just made everything make so much sense!!! I pulled out the DMM and checked my LEDs. LOL you were right they ranged from 1.74 to 1.99. My higher value LEDs were the 3mm actually not all but most of them. I guess I really should listened a little better. I had a bunch of plastic "sandwich" bags so I wrote what they were on the bag and sorted them out ... did I get too organized by going two places past the decimal??? For example I labeled  them as 1.92 and 1.74 and 1.93. Is a tenth really that important when using them for clipping?

So I would say that I have learned a lot from this post alone and I hope that everyone who needs to know and reads this will also.

Last idea ... I understand germanium diodes clip quickest and silicon clips before LEDs. But I hate the sound of germanium it sounds to much like a FUZZ pedal and not a distortion pedal to me. Silicon I am affraid will not alter the stock sound enough. And good ol LEDs just take too long to clip. So that is really why I chose what I did. But I have heard a lot of people talk about using two diodes and/or two LEDs. If you know anything about how I can make this happen in a DS-1 Let Me Know. I want the pedal to stay tubish sounding like it is but is not as fast to get distorted and broken up as I would like (but still a hundred times better than a stock pedal). I am looking for the distortion knob to respond a little quicker and go a little farther. It is deep and meaty like I have it ... it would make a 2000 dollar Mesa jealous. I have less than $30 invested in this pedal and it sounds even better since it has been cheap to work on/mod.
Sorry for the long post. I guess I STILL have a couple of questions.
Thanks and please post a reply or send me a message.

Thanks
AFF

[BAARON]

Actually, the extra LED on the Keeley doesn't stay lit all the time either.  The LED will only light up when it's actually clipping, and if it's only Barely clipping there won't be enough power flowing through it to really be noticable.

A current limiting resistor limits the amount of power an LED can consume.  If you don't have the resistor in series with an LED, it'll just draw current more or less like an open wire, and you'll most likely burn it out pretty qiuckly.  So the resistor makes sure it only gets as much current as it needs.  ledcalc.com can help you figure out what size of resistors you need for your LEDs when you use them as lights.

Sorting clipping diodes out to the 2nd decimal place?  No, definitely not necessary for clipping.   Just round to the first decimal place.

Germanium (Ge) diodes = ~0.3v clipping threshold, with rounded corners to the waveform.
Silicon (Si) diodes = ~0.6v clipping threshold, with hard corners to the waveform.
LEDs = ~1.5-2.0v clipping threshold, with rounded corners to the waveform.

If you put multiple diodes in series with each other, all pointing the same direction, those voltages add up.  So a silicon in series with a germanium will give you 0.9v clipping with slightly rounded corners.

The lower the clipping threshold, the more distorted and compressed your tone will be.  The higher the clipping threshold, the more dynamic, touch-sensitive, and punchy your tone will be.

Perhaps try Si+Ge (in series, meaning end to end rather than side by side) in one direction, then Si+Si+Ge or Si+Ge+Ge in the other direction... that'll give you 0.9v in one direction, and 1.2v or 1.5v in the other.  Asymmetrical is generally regarded as being more musical, because it produces more even-order harmonics.  That said, in a tube amp, the preamp distortion is typically asymmetrical, and power amp distortion (due to the nature of push-pull tube configurations) is usually symmetrical... so sometimes symmetrical arrangements of clipping diodes can sound pretty decent (such as in the Lovepedal Eternity).

[AFF]

Awesome. I think I am going to add something (diode) in series with the Si diode ... I would almost pop in a Ge but I am affraid it will come out sounding a little too Fuzz like and not enough like a distortion. I hope that makes sense. I am trying to move as far from a fuzz sound as I can. Anyways thanks to everyone for you help. I think I am getting the hang of things a little bit better. My next step with the pedal is to look for another way to add a little more volume. I feel like the volume knobs stops working past 12:00 going clockwise. From the start point to 12:00 it moves as it should but seems to do nothing between 1:00 and the end of it's turning. I am wondering if this might be the resistors that run in conjunction with the knob. I will have to look that over again ... those may have been for the tone knob. I can somewhat read schematics but when someone disects them for me I understand them a lot better : obviously right?

I am always looking for more diodes that will serve as clipping diodes that I can run in d4 and d5. I have 1n4001, LEDs, Si 1n914 and 1n4148(Switching Diodes??? Anybody know anything about these?)

I now love the sound that my little orange pedal can make ... i just gotta get more volume without changing the tone of it!

Thanks so much for all your help!

-AFF

[BAARON]

The reason a single germanium diode sounds fuzzy is because it clips SO MUCH SIGNAL (everything above 0.3v) that the result is almost square-wave.  If you put it in series with a silicon diode, it'll basically just sound like a slightly "bigger" silicon diode (0.9v).  You won't have that fuzz tone.  In fact, the higher the clipping threshold, the more dynamic and punchy your sound will be... and much less fuzzy.  It'll also be less distorted, though, and I know you thought the LEDs were too open-sounding.

Pretty much all your silicon diodes (1n914, 1n400x, 1n4148, etc) are going to sound alike: edgy and hard-clipping.  Any differences will be very very subtle, and probably not very noticeable in something like a DS1.

More volume:  bigger clipping diodes will let through more volume.  (By clipping the signal, the diodes limit your output volume.)  LEDs will be much louder than silicon, for example, because their clipping threshold is so high.  The "Marshall" mode in the Keeley mod is an LED in one direction, and an LED+Si in the other direction.

Also more volume: You might want to try removing R18 and replacing it with a jumper.  Also, a common Tubescreamer mod may come in handy with the output buffer to improve the output power of the pedal:
Replace R21 and R23 with 10k resistors, R22 with a 100 ohm, and C14 with a 10ųF cap.  (Pay attention to what direction it points - polarity counts!)

It stops getting louder pretty quickly past 12:00 on the dial because the volume knob they use is linear taper, not audio.  So it gets loud fast, then doesn't get much louder.  The DS1 is actually pretty quiet pedal most of the time.

[AFF]

BAARON ! You are a genius and you have saved me more time that you could imagine. I have looked everywhere for answers like these ... then I post it here and you give me the info that I am looking for. Someone should get ahold of the site owner and we can get a link to the page started so people can vote on who here has offered the most help. That might be good and bad ... then you would get way more messages and post directed to you only LOL. Anyways thank you so much!!! I may now try a Ge and LED together. But do you think I could change the style of pot used for the volume knob and possibly make it more effecient? If so what would I look for?

Can you answer another question since you answered the output buffer question?

What options do I have on messing with the input buffer? My limited knowledge tells me that I could possibly open the signal by "opening" up the input buffer ... the first resistor and caps I think. I personally feel like the input should be wide open but restricted just slightly. Okay now the second part to my question concerning the input buffer ... would this allow more dynamic range and volume from the signal then?
A little bit off topic but I bought a FAB metal the other day for CHEAP. A little under ten bucks and stock it sounds better than my Metal Zone but I played around with the pedal a little and it is very "dynamic" and you can dial in so many sounds with it! I am blown away by this little guy but the main thing I noticed is when you turn down the voulme and add a little gain ... pluck a string say the B string (actually an A from my turning) and you get an almost clean sound for half a second and then you hear the clipping after that and you can tell the clipping becomes less and less as the string vibration decays. I mean you can truly hear the clipping ... it almost gives that dead battery sound when you play it this way ... you can turn the tone knob some and seriously "hear" something that I have not heard from a distortion pedal. It's almost like getting the speakers in a 4x12 to break up the perfect way (not the same exact sound just the great feeling of success)

I now just need to find the schematics for the fab metal and buy another and mess around with it a little but that is later on down the road. I still enjoy my ds-1 way too much to give up working with it.

Last question ... I bought an old and rare Morley just distortion pedal ... that is it's exact name. When I plugged it up nothing so finally after inspecting it top to bottom I sat it back down on my amp and the sound came through because I was less than gentle about placing it down. I reopened the case and I first thought it might be a weakened connection for the 1/4" input so i was messing with it and later I bumped the top of a cap (electrolytic blue and silver) and it solved the problem again! Just off the top of your head ... do you think it might be a cap? I have of problems like this being caused my caps so it leads me to believe.
Sorry for another long post!

[BAARON]

Audio taper vs linear taper doesn't make it any more or less efficient... it just changes when the knob gets loud.  http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/potsecrets/potscret.htm  This article explains it, but it's long.  You don't neeeeed to read it.

The input buffer isn't going to give you more volume at the output, because it's the clipping diodes and the output section that limit the volume.  It won't increase the dynamic range of the output either, because any time you have a lot of distortion it's all going to come out more or less the same volume.  The clipping restricts the output dynamics, because Everything above the clipping threshold comes out at the same level... so any time it's clipping it's pretty much going to come out the same...ish.

The only thing changing the input buffer might do is let a little more bass in, but this won't really increase the bass at the output: rather, it'll increase the bass that gets clipped and make the low end mushier.

If you want a more touch-sensitive reponse, I'd try Jack Orman's DS-1 fat mod... http://www.muzique.com/news/fat-mod-for-the-boss-ds-1/  It'll make it muuuch more touch sensitive and bassy, but at the expense of a lot of high end gain and DS-1 character.  It's a much lower gain circuit like that, but it's much more responsive to your playing dynamics.


The Morley: if bumping that cap fixed it, you might want to check its solder joints.  One might just be broken... heating that joint again should let the solder flow and fix the problem, if that is indeed the problem.

[AFF]

BAARON thanks so much for all your help. I owe you a ton now. I will heat up the soldering iron in a minute and try to see if that works ( i bet it will ... that makes sense.) I will try to get a sound clip eventually so that it can be heard and some pictures if that really matters

Thanks again and I appreciate all the help.

Thanks
-AFF