another octave-up post.

[1878]

Hello Everyone.

I'm after something with a lead tone similar to a Muff, but with the octave added. I own a Fender Blender (too squishy, not enough sustain) and a Dan Electro French Toast (not squishy, but NOISY !!) and unfortunately, neither of them do it for me, but the Dan Electro comes closest. I've tried all sorts of different things i.e lowering the gain and placing them before/after other effects, but all to no avail.

There's probably a reason why octave-up effects sound the way they do. Can any of you fine ladies and gentlemen shed some light upon the path to tone Shangri-La ?? I'm no expert in electronics, so please don't feel you're being too descriptive or basic.

Thanks in advance...

[earthtonesaudio]

Why octave up effects sound like they do depends on the method used to get the octave.
In the analog world, it's either rectification or fundamental cancellation.
Rectifying the signal, either full- or half-wave rectifying, produces the sort of ring-modulated sounding octave up of the Octavia, Green Ringer, and probably the French Toast (which I think is pretty close to the Foxx Tone Machine).
If you put a sine wave into these, it comes out not as a doubled-frequency sine, but as a series of m- or u-shaped waves.  That gives some extra high frequencies to the tone.

If the octave up is achieved by fundamental cancellation (phase splitter driving a pair of transistors such as the GEO Mu-Doubler, or Tim Escobedo's Octup! and Pushme Pullyou), it's a different story.  The octave sound is achieved by putting almost equal but out of phase signals into similar devices, and mixing the output.  If everything was perfectly matched, you would get no sound at the output, but since the devices are real, not ideal, you get an output with the strongest, most closely matched components removed (i.e. the fundamental note).  Some say this results in a cleaner sound.  I haven't built them so don't take my word for it.

Digital octave up is different again, but probably not what you're looking for.

If you like the French Toast, get yourself a transformer and a couple Ge or Shottky diodes, and stick it on the output of a fuzz you like.

[1878]

Thanks for the reply...

I've been looking at Tim Escobedo's Rambler. Could I graft that at the end of some other effect ?? I ask this because I've used 386's before and they're LOUD !!

Thanks.

[Mark Hammer]

The French Toast IS the FTM from all accounts, with the exception that switching is electronic rather than mechanical.  I have not seen verified schematics of the FT, but given that someone who oversaw Foxx now oversees Danelectro, I think it is a safe bet.

I'm convinced that the rather pronounced octave available from the FTM/FT results from the network sitting between the emitter of Q2 and base of Q1.  It is a highly unique occurrence in the world of analog phase-splitter-based octave-up units.

I think almost everyone here who has used octave-up units to any degree will tell you that they are picky in their appetites, and that it is almost a universal that guitar tone controls have to be  adjusted, and neck pickups are de rigeur.  What that says to me is that the vast majority of octave-up fuzzes simply lack the sort of on-board signal conditioning required to optimize the octave function.  It is as if they were initially conceived of as fuzzes, and the octave was thrown in as an afterthought; something for almost nothing.

One of the other things that requires better articulating as well, is the relationship between octave-up units and ring modulators.  Several summers ago, JC Maillet happened to be in town here (I'm in Ottawa, and he is normally found in the Channel Islands off the coast of British Columbia), and we spent a very pleasant afternoon working our way through his pedals and mine.  One of the things we noticed was that octave-up fuzzes generate sideband products; i.e., sums and differences.  This is the principal reason why the Green Ringer is called Green Ringer; it sounds a bit like a ring modulator at times.

The sideband products are only produced under certain circumstances, or rather, are most audible under certain circumstances.  There is a mathematics underlying this, which JC is much more capable of explaining than I am.  One of the most audible circumstances is during the bending of a note, and only during certain portions of that note bend.  It is also most noticeable on some strings above certain frets.  All of which says to me that the proportion of fundamental to harmonic content is often key to that noticeable/audible sideband product.

[slacker]

I'd recommend the Superfuzz if you want something that's more of a fuzz with some added octave. Loads of sustain and similar scooped sound to a big muff.

[1878]

Hello again...

Bit of an update. I've just built the Rambler, tried it, added the 1M pot from the Marginally Better Rambler, and I'm more than happy with the results !! I ran it after the Big Muff and it's just what I'm after. I'm not that fussed with it on it's own, but used as an 'add-on' type-thing I think it sounds cracker.

You can dial out the octave with the 1M pot, which makes it very usable indeed in my humble opinion. There are also some odd little noises and overtones appearing every now and again which also appeal to me.

Thanks everyone for your time.