Op Amp myth debunking on youtube

[Electric_Death]

Thought everyone would get a kick out of this and how poor the testing method is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTv2jAree8

If I put 4558's in the overdrive I designed, I can barely get pinch harmonics in the bridge position and lose about 30-40% of my gain.
If I use 5532's, which it was designed around, I get pinch harmonics in all pickup positions with the tone closed.
In fact in every circuit I've built or modded or amp I've modded with sockets, the differences in sound and performance are always noticeable with op amp changes and varying combination's and sometimes as bold as a slap in the face.

I suppose I'm preaching to the choir though.

[Taylor]

Why don't you elaborate on what's poor about the testing method? I'd also be interested to hear an explanation for what Visual Sound's motivation would be to lie.

[Electric_Death]

Why don't you elaborate on what's poor about the testing method? I'd also be interested to hear an explanation for what Visual Sound's motivation would be to lie.

So you are saying that they are liars.

I am saying that they are flaunting ignorance through an incompetent testing method.

For starters, play more than the same recording of the same chord played repeatedly.
Listen to notes sustain in multiple position and on different strings and through different pickup positions.
Compare noise, gain output, frequency timbers etc.
Don't just change op amps, play the same prerecorded chord over and over through the pedals.

Perform a proper, thorough test and the difference in output, sound and general performance is absolutely undeniable.
In some circuits, it's subtle but in others, it's as bold as a slap in the face.

[synthmonger]

Post a video in response. I'd love to see what your experiment produces.   

[R.G.]

Thought everyone would get a kick out of this and how poor the testing method is:
...
I suppose I'm preaching to the choir though.

In fact, this set of comparisons was picked picked over pretty thoroughly in this forum. You can find it by using search, I think.

I can, in fact, think of a worse testing method: swapping out your own opamps so you know what's in the socket. Humans not only don't do this well, there's a lot of evidence that they *can't* do it well. The knowledge of what's being tested poisons the tests.

A couple of things come to mind.
(1) go google "Clever Hans" and read some.
(2) post a better testing method; this isn't hard, because there was not a fully executed double blind test there, just as big and elaborate a test as could be done with 50-60 professional musicians in one evening in a recording studio. I'd like to see a more detailed, more rigorous test done.  Why don't you write out how to do that, using good, widely accepted scientific human psychology methods, and an estimate of the cost and time to do that.

[frank_p]

Here:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74476.0
Have fun.

[Electric_Death]

Here:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74476.0
Have fun.

Still highly flawed testing conditions.
In most cases, playing through each one for a few days then having them switched without your knowing...well you're going to notice within the first 5 minutes. I've changed op amps countless times in my head only to return to the same chip combination I favor most. A few times I actually tricked myself, went a few months playing with different chips, take a week off then start playing and wonder why my amp seem noisy and trashy.

I pop her open and what do I find?
I had stuck a 4558 in the distortion stage, a chip I absolutely detest for numerous reasons.
That youtube test was both ridiculous and horrible...and a bold example of buffoonery.   

[ItZaLLgOOd]

E-D you should do what works for you and your ears.  Your obviously very passionate about testing. I thought the test was thorough enough for me.  Even if you can hear a difference while the guitar is alone you or your half drunk audience will never know while in a band/performance setting.

Close enough for Rock and Roll!! that's what I always say.

[Electric_Death]

E-D you should do what works for you and your ears.  Your obviously very passionate about testing. I thought the test was thorough enough for me.  Even if you can hear a difference while the guitar is alone you or your half drunk audience will never know while in a band/performance setting.

Close enough for Rock and Roll!! that's what I always say.

I did a test with my "Insanely Clean Overdrive" as I have titled it.
With some op amps, it won't even function properly. On the first stage, I had to use a really low value pot since it was designed around a specific op amp and at about 75% with one chip, it overloads and starts to hiss and hum and screech. Another chip I tested it is insanely noisy. If I try to turn up the pot that controls clipping, INSTANT hum beyond any use. When I adjust the gain stages volumes, same thing.
If I use a 4558, 072 or a 5532 etc., it works just fine.

There are also differences in clarity, the chip that overloads the extremely low value pot has less "trash" when I hit arpeggio rakes. Overall it gives the clearest and densest tone. The chip that hums like hell unleashed gives intermodulation distortion which sounds quite nice while another chip gives the most raunchy of harmonics I have ever heard where as the 4558 reduces them by about 75%!
These aren't subtle differences, these are punch you in the face and make you regret foolin around behind your op amps back differences

Sure the audience won't notice this or that but certain things like feeble pinch harmonics or arpeggio rakes that sound like a your speaker is a trashcan lid isn't going to be ignored even by the drunk
Those guys on youtube are only fooling themselves and their ignorant audience volunteers.

[TELEFUNKON]

For the one or the other who missed the original topic back in february:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74476.0 !

[Electric_Death]

For the one or the other who missed the original topic back in february:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74476.0 !

I've read through it, those guys should have been scrutinized and really, criticized.
There is so much wrong with their testing conditions it's a waste of time to discuss on one side or the other.
I decided to do another test of my own and check the output voltage differences of my pedal with all controls open. Sure enough. the mV outputs are all different. One chip producing about 29mV, another being 90mV and so on.

Their test was garbage, plain and simple.
I don't subscribe to the "everyone bite their tongue, sugar coat their opinions and be friends" politics of message boards. You either be yourself or you don't and what I have learned about many of these DIY and guitar forums is, everyone demands we all conform to this etiquette we're you simply have to be fake and abandon your personality when you have a harsh opinion that is going to turn the less mature into screaming children with mob mentality.

So in other words, those guys are morons and their test was ridiculous and absolute nonsense. Anyone praising them or defending them is a moron and the fact that the thread you linked has so much mileage and so much ass polishing sickens me. Someone telling me there's really no audible difference between this chip and that chip and their blind test proves it is either a liar or simply stupid. When the output drops by 60mV, it doesn't even take a musician to notice such a blatant audible difference.

[R.G.]

Sir, I disagree.

I'd be the last person to say the test was a rigid psychological testing setup. It was not constructed as such. But it did capture the reaction of people who are professional musicians (and therefore accustomed and skilled at evaluating sound) listening to music in a performance setting. You may not like it, and you may not agree with it, but I think you should do a bit more than measure the output of some pedals with a voltmeter before you decide on the validity of the comparison.

Beyond that, I don't think it's fair to start name-calling and personal attacks. It doesn't exactly enhance one's credibility to start calling people morons when they are demonstrably not. If being true to your personality demands that you metaphorically walk up and kick them in the shins, it might be helpful to reflect on why that should be so. No one can force you to be nice and sugar coat yourself. But they may not want to listen to the raw, unpolished version of your self either, and don't have to.

The problem with being coarse and rude in an on line forum is that it runs the level of discourse down into the mud pretty quickly. I've seen it happen on a number of fora. The ones which are not moderated to keep it clean soon degrade into very little else but name-calling and profanity. It crowds out all the real technical content. Requiring politeness may not suit you, the etiquette of forums is a survival characteristic for the forum.

[StephenGiles]

Remember - if you change the opamps for 5532s or perish the thought, SSM 2135s, not only will you play faster, but your mum won't tell you to turn your amp down

[R.G.]

Remember - if you change the opamps for 5532s or perish the thought, SSM 2135s, not only will you play faster, but your mum won't tell you to turn your amp down

Tee...heee... 
I just re-watched "Still Crazy". If I get Eric Clapton's old opamps, can I play like Eric used to?   

[aron]

OK I think everyone got their say here.