Ge vs Si test data with scope and DMM ,help interpret please.

[Brymus]

OK I tried some of the Russian GT404Bs by sticking them in my Si Tonebender MKII Pro.
I was surprised they worked quite well,but I didn't hear any magic  
The main difference to me is that they are a little smoother and they sound better with single coils than Si do because they are a little darker ( I think )
I tried to make the test as accurate as possible
I realize the test is flawed because the Si Tonebender is designed to make Si Q's sound more like a Ge Tonebender would so its probably not ideal for getting the best sound from the Ge Q's.
But it does show how they react differently to the same conditions.

I hope someone will help me understand the Voltage readings and I have scope pics for each reading as well to corelate them with.
I didnt just want to say yeah they sound like this ,blah blah,I wanted hard evidence of what is really happening I just am unsure of what the data means...
If there are other tests I can do with the scope and DMM to show whats happening ,I will if someone will explain whats needed.
Also I used an Esser software tone generator(pretty cool,but I still want to build the GEO one) for the 1 KHz sine wave on my older PC,still it was the same for all the tests so at least its uniform across the board.
I recorded some clips but they are on another PC and some are clipped   I will try to get more tomorrow.

On to the testing > the Ge's are Q1 Hfe 82 Q2 Hfe 84 and Q3 Hfe 155  all with leakage above .4 ma using the Small Bear method.
the Si are Q1 2n3904 Q2 2n3904 and Q3 2n5088 I didnt test them for Hfe but I ma pretty sure they are much higher by the data sheets.
All tests at 76-77 degrees,all voltages in volts unless otherwise stated.
Here is the voltage chart I made, the sustain switch adds a 1uf cap across the E resistor of Q1 the attack is the regular Tonbender attack control.
I used my own tweaked pedal the schematic/layout  is here >http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Brymus/

VOLTAGE CHART >http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=42337&g2_serialNumber=2

the scope shots of the different conditions are here > http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Brymus/Ge+vs+Si+data/

I guess I should mention > I left the sine wave amplitude, the volume on the pedal ,and the bias control on the pedal alone after setting them at the begining and my scope is set to (channel 1 output)  50mv/division ,   (channel 2 input / sinewave )  .1 v / division ,
The time division is .2 milliseconds and I triggered off of channel 2 (the sinwave input to the pedal).
With both channels set to DC coupling.
I can see the differences in voltage,but as far as the scope all I can see is the Si have a little more output but appear to me (which IDK much) to have the same wave form in each condition,the Si produce a very slightly more squared off output but just slightly.(this probably accounts for the slightly smoother sounding distortion ? )
I cant see anything that would account for the slightly darker tone.
Maybe in the voltages I recorded ?
It took a serious amount of effort and time to record all this and make sure the conditions were identical as I could make them.

[Brymus]

Anyone ?
I resized the pics to be readable but not huge,
I recorded detailed voltage readings for four different pedal settings > max attack,min attack, max attack Q1 bypassed with a 1uf cap, and min attack Q1 bypassed with a 1uf cap. All both with Ge first then using Si
The voltages are quite different between the two types of material but the overall waveform not as much...
thanks, Bryan

[R.G.]

OK I tried some of the Russian GT404Bs by sticking them in my Si Tonebender MKII Pro.
I was surprised they worked quite well,but I didn't hear any magic  
The main difference to me is that they are a little smoother and they sound better with single coils than Si do because they are a little darker ( I think )
I tried to make the test as accurate as possible
...
I cant see anything that would account for the slightly darker tone.
Maybe in the voltages I recorded ?
It took a serious amount of effort and time to record all this and make sure the conditions were identical as I could make them.

I know I sound like a curmudgeon a lot when people wax poetic about this or that magic part. It's just that in most cases, swapping one for another results in a small difference. I think you've found the real information. Changing things does make a difference, but often it's a small difference. And the changes are often in the form of a large number of compromises. No magic - just a lot of work!    Rubbing germanium on an effect is not going to magically help anything, except the advertising copy.

[mac]

First, you have negative feedback in the si version and a higher voltage that drives the FF stage softer than the ge version.
Test the sound of Q1 with an audio probe to hear the differences at 8v and 6v, or less.
Second, Bioroids gifted me with some of those bright russian ge. Gracias Miguel.
When I tested them in a FF they sounded to trebly for my taste. I prefer darker ge, or what is almost the same, low gain si w/high end filtering.
I have two FF, si and ge. They sound different, maybe the ge is a little smoother and darker, but I like them both. It is like drinking a glass of Clos des Goisses or Henriot, they taste different but they are both excellent!

If you have the time, record some high-filtered-si and ge samples and let us guess which is which. Just for fun!
Do not be surprise of the results.

mac

[PRR]

Agree.

I don't see "Germanium magic".

What I do recall: when "inexpensive" transistors were $7 each, we used too-too-simple circuits with many flaws. When we had big budget, or when transistors fell to $0.07 a pop (roughly the Silicon era) we used many-stage systems with, as mac says, negative feedback, and got "good" results with any semi-appropriate devices.

Remember why Black invented negative feedback. So that you could build a telephone systems with hundreds of interchangable amplifiers, different for every phone call, and they all sounded the same, despite using whatEVER tubes you could get, alllowed to age without frequent attention. A one-tube booster had gain of 10 to 20. A 3-tube booster gave gain of 19.5 to 20.5, even after the tubes aged. The amp did what two resistors told it to do, not what the tubes wanted to do.

Try a 1-transistor design.

[Brymus]

Thank You ,RG ,Mac , and PRR
I am trying my best to learn as I go,but I really appreciate the help along the way.
I didnt get a chance to try any others circuits or tests today ,but intend to as soon as I can.
I will definitely try a single transistor circuit like a Rangemaster.
I will also breadboard a Ge version Tonebender for a better sound comparison.
Any other advice is greatly appreciated ,especially from you three guys

And Mac I like that idea of a blind guess comparison for the forum ...
I will record some clips and let people vote which is the Ge and which is the Si versions.

I tried my Ge Qs in my Si TBMKII pro again today as they were already in it with the scope leads still hooked up(playing for fun,not testing really) but at much louder volumes through my EVJ and was just blown away by how good it sounded ,thinking wow the louder volumes must amplify the subtle differences.
Then I swapped back in the Si Qs and well... ,the blind test for the forum will be quite interesting.