Looper or buffer

[TimWaldvogel]

I more than likely own the parts to a make one or two signal buffers for my pedalboard with 13/14 pedals and counting, an only two of my pedals are true bypass. Obviously with lots of pedals I got some signal drain, what would be better....?

To save the 50-60 bucks for all the 3pdt switches and LEDs I need for a T.B.looper

OR

build a signal buffer to get a little of my sustain and signal back?

[TimWaldvogel]

Anybody? Opinions?

[flintstoned]

Put them both in the same box. Have the buffer in the after the 3pdt before the send Jack of the loop circuit or put it before the switch and it'll be on all the time.

[MmmPedals]

If your pedals are not true bypass then they are probably buffered. a large true bypass box is more likely to load the signal than non true bypass buffered pedals due to the large amount of internal wire.

[TimWaldvogel]

Well my boss pedals and my visual sound have buffers.

And internal wire loading the signal? The wire path would be relatively short. Only a couple feet at most. How does that work?

[MmmPedals]

14 pedals add up 2"-5" in each. Plus the length of your cables. But a good buffer should fix that.  2 buffers are no better than 2 so if you have boss or VS then adding a buffer wont help and a TP looper probably wont either. Is there a wah first in your signal chain? Try putting a buffered pedal first.

[TimWaldvogel]

The first and last pedals in  my chain are boss. Maybe I should just run a clean boost mid chain with a light boost

[flintstoned]

Well if you have the switch and four jacks just crimp it together without soldering or boxing it up and test it out to see if there really is any tone sucking. There are other benefits to having loops like if you wanna use it to turn on a reverb and delay at the same time for that Gilmore solo so you don't have to tap dance.

[TimWaldvogel]

That's what I am thinking about doing... Hmmm is hardwair bypass almost as good? I have 4 hardwire bypass pedals

[joegagan]

not sure if this answers the q, but a few ideas.

i group my pedals and run several loops.

loop 1 contains only TB pedals that like to interact with the guitar- fuzzfaces  etc. no buffer.

loop 2 is post buffer, contains any tb or non-tb pedals.

at some point, i split the signal into 2 sends ( usually dry-ish / wet-ish ) to go to two amps. this requires a second buffer box with a phase reversal switch, usually a volume pedal to blend in the time delay loop to add depth at will. it is fun.

sometimes for my customers in custom switching setups, i like to incorporate the boss TU-2 tuner in the signal path early to handle buffer duty. in comparison tests, i found it to be a really nice sounding buffer, and most players need a tuner in their setup anyway. this one even borrowed the 9volts for the LEDS from the boss ( output and power wires hardwired in place of the TU2 out jack)

[Mark Hammer]

I think Joe is on the right track.

It's good to have buffers in pedals, but put a dozen or more buffers in series, and there can be some modest cumulative bandwidth loss and added noise.  The net effect of any single pedal is negligible, so there is no need to TB each pedal, but the net effect of a bunch of them can be audible.

In which case, there is nothing wrong with using the built-in electronic bypass of the pedals themselves for engaging/bypassing them....as individual effects, and nothing wrong with using a TB loop selector if there is a whole bunch of them you know you're not going to be using for a tune, or extended period of palying.

And, is Joe rightly notes, sometimes there are pedals whose impedance requirements/peccadillos/quirks require you to TB them.

Note that bigger loop-selector boards like the Road Rage ones here: http://www.roadrageprogear.com/bigfoot_true_bypass.html inevitably require that slightly longer than usual patch cables are employed between the selector and pedals than what yo might use to connect one pedal to another.  In such instances, the cumulative cable involved may be of a sort that an always-on master input buffer for the whole looper unit is a good idea.

[TimWaldvogel]

Well maybe I should do a 2 or 3 loop pedal and I can jut run all my distortion pedals in one, an output fromthat tht is permanent for my volume and eq pedal sonic maximizer etc, and run another loop with my delay in it and such and I can leave my boss delay in tap tempo mode too :-) 

[joegagan]

thanks mark.

tim, sounds like you are on the right track. if i am running more than 3 'always buffered' pedals,( boss, digidelay, etc,) i run smaller separate loops to keep the total number of buffers down.

[zombiwoof]

That's what I am thinking about doing... Hmmm is hardwair bypass almost as good? I have 4 hardwire bypass pedals

If you are talking about Dunlop pedals that profess to be "hardwire bypass", that is Dunlop double-speak for the old MXR tone-sucking bypass that keeps the board in the circuit even when bypassed.  Their term for REAL true bypass is "true hardwire bypass".

Here's a very good article on bypass methods used by pedal manufacturers today:
http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/articles/bypass.htm

Also, on Dunlop's Blog pages they now have a chart that shows the bypass method used in all of their pedals.  If you look at it, you'll see that very few of Dunlop's pedals are really true bypassed.

Al

[TimWaldvogel]

Well that should save me space and and cost on parts as well. Whats the beat way to hook up a 3pdt switch? Diagram?