HERE WE GO AGAIN, BRETT.....MAYER PIGGYBACK TB

[brian wenz]

Hallo Hallo---
      A while back I mentioned trying a piggybacked si Q1  into a germ. Q2 [still haven't done it yet....]  in a Fuzz Face-style circuit.   Wot about a 2-stage [Q1 and Q2] gainier treble booster type thing ala the Roger Mayer Concord??   I know this is all  a "make-'em-up"  'cuz nobody has a schematic for the  Concord, but the idea of a si front end into a germ Q2 would be cool.  [Or, maybe a BS-170 for Q1 ]  I wonder how close to the Gagan Easy Face this would be??
Brian.

[Bluesgeetar]

Class A silicon drive section?   Hey did you even read all that stuff in the PDF manual of the COncorde of Mayers site?

Man he actaully gives alot of hints and info on his description on the website and in the PDF manual on his website.  He also states that the original circuit he designed was alot more simple than the Concorde+.  That the Concorde is the new updated design.  I think the piggyback silicons would work!  remember the email I posted a ways back he sent me?  He said the Pedal he made for Page was based loosely on the Maestro Fuzztone.  Maybe he had two piggybacked silicons in there and a Germ?  I think were on to something.  The plot thickins.  :mrgreen:

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello--
    I wonder if the pedal he is referring to is the fuzz or the treble booster??   If it's the fuzz, then it makes perfect sense that he would use the Maestro circuit 'cuz it was one of the few around at that time [the Maestro is a Shin Ei  design that was made in Japan.]
 I'm sure the piggybacked si would work but I'd like to here the difference between them and a regular higher-gain si for Q1.  Gagan's Easy Face has a regular  si for Q1  and it sounds real good.
If Mayer used a common circuit for his design there is a good chance it's the basic Vox Tonebender style circuit that was later morphed into the Fuzz Face.
MORE INFO!!  MORE - MORE !!
Brian.

[Bluesgeetar]

Pretty close I imagine.  I was listening to those sound bytes of the ROG multiface and one of them sounded pretty close to the Zep fuzz.  You could tell the amp part wasn't right but the basic qualities of the fuzz was in there.  I can't tell what config it is.  Can't decifer that note on ROG on how to figure out which config it is to go with the sound byte.  Other than that them boys walk on water to me.  I think I'm gonna build the Easy face or multi face and start out with a TFK BC108B and a OC44.  Then move on to an OC75 then and OC81D, then an OC71, then a RCA 2n270.  Gonna try that Bs170 thang to.  Then gonna Piggyback two TFK BC108B to see how that goes.  Something has got to sound good in all that!  Hey what part of the Easy Face circuit would you put that passive tone control.  Not to sound stupid.  I play better than I EE pedals.  what are your ideas on the the build?

He said he based it loosely.  Said he used different caps, resistors, voltage and trannys.  I thought he maybe piggy backed cause the Maestro used 3 trannys so if he did use all three like the Maestro has then and it was a boost driving one germ.  Then maybe he Pigged two Si then the Germ.  I don't know.  I will find out though.  I have a thunderbolt and a super to throw these ideas at plus I got my tele wired up like Pages.  I'm on a mission.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello--
   The fuzz that Mayer built for Page in the early '60's  probably was the one based on the Maestro [more likely it was a modded Maestro...].  The fuzz that Page used on all the Yardbirds and Gimp Blimp stuff was the Tonebender MK II [also 3-trannys but completely different circuit].  I wanna find out what the deal is on this 2-tranny Treble Booster!  
It's pretty safe to assume that Mayer did not use piggybacked trannys for anything back then [nobody did] so it must be simple to apply the theory and design  something that works.  Where the hell is Brett when ya need 'im??!
 Passive tone control.........well, Gagan put his tone control at the beginning of his Easy Face and it works well.   Yeah, that may take some work to figure out the best place for it...
Brian.

[Jim Jones]

Hi Brian, Blues...

Last night I breadboarded a PNP LPB-1 (using a low gain Si, hfe of about a 100), and ran it into an Orange Treble & Bass Booster (using an OC72).  BTW, the Orange is the one with the 500K pot at the input, pseudo tone control - more like "more gain at the brightest setting" control.  Anyway, racket and hiss aside, I got some pretty good results after messing around with some capacitor values.  At one point I felt compelled to play the opening of "War Pigs" as that's exactly how it sounded.

Thanks for the idea to try the back to back Si-to-Ge booster thing.  I'll let you know how it goes after I play around with it some more.

Jim

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello Jim--
     Great!   How about replacing the tone control with Gagan's  control??
It might work better in  that circuit.
Did you just run one pedal into another without changing any of the values of the input/output caps??   I was thinking of some way to combine the two circuits into one pedal........silicon front end  [LPB-1 type booster] with a germ for Q2.
Brian.

[brian wenz]

Hello Again--
   then there's always the thought of using a piggybacked silicon treble booster for the second half of the circuit......
     "MISS WAR PIGGY"   !!
Brian.

[Bluesgeetar]

Way to go Jim!  Keep us posted bro.  Heu Brian I was pondering the same thing on how to combine the two circuits.  Maybe jerk out the input caps and run one circuit into the other with maybe a tone control between? Still thinking about the power supply work around.  Just thinking.   :?

[brett]

Gagan's Easy Face has a regular si for Q1 and it sounds real good.

The EasyFace kind of gets away with an Si for Q1 because a small emitter resistor reduced the gain to about 100, irrespective of the hFE of the tranny.  There's a catch, though - the bias on Q1 is not so low, and it will take a bit more drive to turn the transistor off, and hence clip the signal.  In practice, it may not matter that much; I don't know.

About going from Si to Ge.  I've used some Si power devices to good effect.  Especially the BD139.  I just got some from Mouser with hFEs of 130 (Bingo! for fuzzface Q2s).  But usually I find high hFE transistors annoying when used at maximum gain (as in Q1 in the fuzzface).

Where the hell is Brett when ya need 'im??!

Doing this ridiculous thing of writing a PhD thesis (non-electronics) that 8 years ago seemed like a good idea, but now mostly is a pain in the a**e.  I haven't touched a soldering iron in weeks.  Oh well.........

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello Brett-
     Yeah, I thought that would draw you out of the woodwork!  Good luck on the thesis.
Any thoughts on this "Concord" thing
Thanks--
Brian.

[Bluesgeetar]

Found some dude on Harmonycentral.com that has bought one and gives more thoughts on the circuit:

"The manual mentions that this treble booster boasts two seperate germanium/silicon circuits which can be controlled with the tone knob. There's no mention as to how you control which circuit when using this knob. Judging purely from the sound I'd say the germanium tones can be gotten with the tone knob turned to the far right and the silicon ones with the control all the way to the left. This means that with the tone knob on 12 o'clock you should theoretically have a hybrid germanium/silicon tone and you can add either more warm germanium tones by turning to the right or more icepicky silicon tones by turning to the left. I don't know if this is a true description but that's what it sounds like to my ears.


The other knob that's being described in the manual in a very confusing manner is the drive knob. According to the manual the drive knob allows you to overdrive the silicon circuit so you can add more gain and dirt to the germanium and/or silicon treble tone. Again I'm assuming that this is a correct description as the manual is way too vague and technical for me to fully grasp this. Judging from the sound you add not only more drive but also more treble so I guess that's the silicon circuit clipping.


The output knob simply controls the volume of the pedal. I'm giving this category a 7 because of the unnecessary confusion created by the manual. I'm still not 100% sure if the above descriptions are correct. Does it matter? NO! If you ignore the manual and use your ears you'll find out what this baby does as quick as 1-2-3. So what if it's germanium, silicon or both? It sounds pretty damn good, I'll tell you that! The front panel battery slide is a nice touch and so are the 1 true-bypass output and the 2 buffered ones

You can get anything from a subtle warm boost to some very thin and shrill icepicky sounds. I don't have any particular use for the drive knob but if you want it slightly dirtier and lo-fi the option is there. I like the tone knob myself. To the far right the pedal sounds and warmest and produces a beautiful subtle treble boost with absolutely NO loss of low end. As you turn the tone farther to the left you will enhance the treble. This may sound thin compared to the far-right setting but your low end still remains intact and as a stand-alone sound it's probably too piercing at first but this could be very useful in a band setting to cut thru the mix with certain songs or accoustics

The pedal is also very low noise. It's clearly a member of the fuzz family as it generates natural tube fuzz by emphasizing the treble and also adds a little fuzz of its own. It makes for a very organic mix with a tube amp at breakup point. As you increase the treble you will also hear a touch of upper octave coming into play. Very nice! The pedal cleans up beautifully as you roll down the guitar volume. It's one of those pedals you can leave on all night if you happen to be in a dark-sounding room with too much bass resonance happening or simply if a particular song calls for it. I think Roger created his own animal here and I commend him for it. Nice one, Rog!


One word of advice: be careful where you place the pedal in the signal chain and what pedals you use it with! I tried it in various positions in the chain and like it best in first position driving all other pedals. I also like the buffered output better than the hard-wired (= true bypass) one. The Concorde will negate the effect of a fuzz face somewhat in first position but it will absolutely squish it after a FF! It's one of those pedals that really wants to be on its own. Not completely a team player, I'm afraid. I'm giving the Concorde a 9 for that reason alone."



Just some extra info.

[brian wenz]

Hello Blues---
   Thanks!     I actually wonder how much different the Concord would be from just running a 1-tranny booster in a Rangemaster???
I was looking at the schematic for the Hornby-Skewes Treble Booster and remembered that the thing was designed to be used with the Zonk Machine and had NO input or output caps.    Hhhmmmmmmm......
Brian.

[antonis]

Not again..