Blue Collar Clone... newb

[instantaphex]

HI everyone.  First post here and first attempt at dabbling in stompboxes.  I picked up an arduino not too long ago to try my hand at embedded programming.  It's been a ton of fun.  As a musician naturally I wanted to mix music and electronics... hence my presence.  I've always loved my menatone blue collar so I found a schematic online and figured I'd give it a go.  I know for a fact that I'm way in over my head, but I figure I'll fall on my face a bunch, maybe get something that halfway works and go from there. 

I'm having trouble tracking down all of the capacitors I need.  My main concern is that I'm not getting the correct ones.  I've been searching around the board for help and coming up short.  I read on the sticky post that we shouldn't post schematics without permission so I won't post a link. 

The schematic calls for 2 X 56p Cer (ceramic I assume...), 2 X 100n, 3X 220n, and a 22uF.  As long as I get them for the correct voltage rating and uF, should any capacitor work?  From what I understand, quality capacitors help with tone.  I'm just trying to assemble parts at this point and I'm having a hard time finding a single site that has everything I need for this project.  Why do most sites have such a limited supply?  I also found a layout of the pedal which shows a 47u electrolytic capacitor, but I'm not seeing this on the schematic.

Let me know if it's ok to post links and I will.  Thanks!

[smallbearelec]

I maintain a large library of spreadsheet BOMs for DIY builds with the parts keyed to SKU numbers in my store:

http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/StoreFront

I don't have a list for this pedal and don't have the schem. Please reply to me at smallbearelec@ix.netcom.com with a link to it. I'll do the BOM and send it to you.

[garcho]

As long as I get them for the correct voltage rating and uF, should any capacitor work?

Sometimes polarity is an issue. For instance, you can easily find an electrolytic capacitor that has a value of 1uF. One lead is + and the other is -. It's slightly harder to find a non-polar capacitor with the same value. They're occasionally written differently, too. 1uF can also be written as 1000n (1nF is also 1000pF). The schematic most likely will list when you want a non-polar capacitor or not - which would mean electrolytic if the value is 1uF or above, generally speaking (you can easily find 0.22uF electrolytic capacitors, but they're not common in guitar pedals). Often, non-polar is listed as 'N.P.' (i.e. 1uF N.P.).

Generally speaking, people around here prefer metal film 'box' caps for coupling audio signals (when you see a capacitor connecting parts of a schematic that the audio signal is passing through, as opposed to the power supply filtering). You will find persuasive arguments for buying ceramic caps, too, because they're cheaper and often times make no audible difference.

Electrolytics are what they are, the only thing to be concerned with in a guitar pedal is the voltage rating and, of course, the value. However, you'll want to know if they are radial:


or axial:


for wiring layout purposes. Most people around here prefer radial because they take up less room on the circuit board. Sometimes vertical space is an issue and axial work better.

[instantaphex]

Thanks for the reply.  Is it safe to assume that when I see a value like 100n on a schematic I should look for 100n as opposed to .1uF or 220n instead of .22uF?  Does expressing capacitance in uF tend to hint at the type of capacitor used in the circuit?

Thanks for the tip on going for radial as opposed to axial.  Tombstoning in tight areas can get a bit hairy I would think.

[nocentelli]

Is it safe to assume that when I see a value like 100n on a schematic I should look for 100n as opposed to .1uF or 220n instead of .22uF?  Does expressing capacitance in uF tend to hint at the type of capacitor used in the circuit?

It seems to be a convention that uF values implies electrolytic, but this may also be because 1uF =1000n and electrolytics tend to be used for higher capacitance values (above 470n/0.47uF electrolytics are generally smaller than box caps for the same capacitance).

The best guide is if the schematic or layout indicates a polarity to the cap, you need polarised electrolytics. This is shown with a + or - sign, or shaded end for negative on layouts; on a schematic, one end of the capacitor will have a curved side for negative, like this -|(-

If their is no indication of polarity, you are safe to use a non polarised cap, either ceramic (usually for smallest values upi to 1n or 10n, and maybe "box" or mylar caps for nanofarad values. Whether different type caps of the same value sound any different is a contentious issue, and best dealt with in another thread....

[pappasmurfsharem]

delete

[pappasmurfsharem]

Thanks for the reply.  Is it safe to assume that when I see a value like 100n on a schematic I should look for 100n as opposed to .1uF or 220n instead of .22uF?  Does expressing capacitance in uF tend to hint at the type of capacitor used in the circuit?

Thanks for the tip on going for radial as opposed to axial.  Tombstoning in tight areas can get a bit hairy I would think.

Not really. It's one of those tomato/tamato situations they mean the same thing.

Generally if it's in pF picofarads it's a ceramic not always but that will make finding the values easier I would say to make your life easy... Assume 1pF to 999pF ceramic (with some exceptions on the higher end of that scale) from 1000pF (1nF) to 1uF assume Mylar or metal film type. Anything higher than 1uF is electrolytic

In general metal film or Mylar is preferred over electrolytic or ceramic. 1uF electrolytic can be used as space saving measure but is not preferred.

Since I assume you are just starting out most layouts or instructions will tell you what you need.

I decent source with everything you should need barring vintage or Out of production stuff would be taydaelectronics.com

Mammoth electronics is another ok source.

If you need specialty parts and/or the superior customer service experience then smallbearelec is the way to go it's also a one stop shop that should have everything you would need for that new dangled dirt box or a mojo fuzz and everything in between

The proprietor Steve was the first to comment above

[instantaphex]

I decent source with everything you should need barring vintage or Out of production stuff would be taydaelectronics.com

This was really helpful.  They had everything listed just like it was on the schematic.  Pretty helpful.

Thanks a lot guys!

[smallbearelec]

A few notes on this build...It's a Tube Screamer variant, so the things we would say about the TS apply to this pedal also:

--It would be worth breadboarding this before you build, because there are numerous possible mods and improvements that you can try. Some you might like, others not.

--The original TS used tantalum caps for a number of values, including .22 mf., but this was not for superior tone; at the time, tantalum was the way to squeeze enough capacitance into the available space. The designer of the Blue Collar may have simply followed suit. You might want to substitute poly film.

--The tone pot in the original TS is an unusual taper, and it was not easily available to hobbyists until recent years. Most builders find that 20K W taper gives better sweep of tone than 25K linear.

--Numerous subs are possible for the clipping diodes and the IC.

--The right value of the series resistor for the LED depends on what type you use. Diffused red usually needs around 2.2K to be suitably bright. Hi-brightness clear can use 10K and will load the battery less, but it doesn't give as wide an angle-of-view.

Some of my competitors are cheaper, but none has my breadth of made-to-order, specialty and obsolete parts specifically geared to stompboxes. Happy Construction!

SD

[garcho]

Some of my competitors are cheaper, but none has my breadth of made-to-order, specialty and obsolete parts specifically geared to stompboxes.

So true. Also, you'll find approximately one million threads about Tayda, Mammoth, etc. and why there stuff is so cheap/crappy. You won't find one about Small Bear that says anything but positive stuff. You know if you're getting something from Steve it's good to go. Here's a recent thread about price vs. quality.

[instantaphex]

A few notes on this build...It's a Tube Screamer variant, so the things we would say about the TS apply to this pedal also:

--It would be worth breadboarding this before you build, because there are numerous possible mods and improvements that you can try. Some you might like, others not.

--The original TS used tantalum caps for a number of values, including .22 mf., but this was not for superior tone; at the time, tantalum was the way to squeeze enough capacitance into the available space. The designer of the Blue Collar may have simply followed suit. You might want to substitute poly film.

--The tone pot in the original TS is an unusual taper, and it was not easily available to hobbyists until recent years. Most builders find that 20K W taper gives better sweep of tone than 25K linear.

--Numerous subs are possible for the clipping diodes and the IC.

--The right value of the series resistor for the LED depends on what type you use. Diffused red usually needs around 2.2K to be suitably bright. Hi-brightness clear can use 10K and will load the battery less, but it doesn't give as wide an angle-of-view.

Some of my competitors are cheaper, but none has my breadth of made-to-order, specialty and obsolete parts specifically geared to stompboxes. Happy Construction!

SD

Good information to know.  I would have happily bought everything from smallbear, I simply couldn't find what I was looking for.  As a brand new builder I don't quite have the knowledge to figure out which parts I can substitute.  I had heard of your site even before joining this forum, so your reputation precedes you.  I'm definitely open to grabbing substitute parts from you as well as a few that I forgot to order.  Keep in mind I'm completely new to this so even moving from schematic (and layout) to breadboard will take me quite a while.

I tend to learn best by doing, and then deconstructing.  That is what I'm hoping to accomplish with this project.  I really want to get good at this.  Maybe I'm starting with too ambitious a project, I suppose we will see.

[smallbearelec]

Keep in mind I'm completely new to this so even moving from schematic (and layout) to breadboard will take me quite a while...Maybe I'm starting with too ambitious a project,

It's more pedal than I would have suggested for a first build, but probably doable If you breadboard first. My Beginner Dos and Don'ts might give you some perspective:

https://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/BeginnerArticle/BeginnerDos.htm

Have fun!

[garcho]

If you're breadboarding, you're on the right path...

[pappasmurfsharem]

Keep in mind I'm completely new to this so even moving from schematic (and layout) to breadboard will take me quite a while...Maybe I'm starting with too ambitious a project,

It's more pedal than I would have suggested for a first build, but probably doable If you breadboard first. My Beginner Dos and Don'ts might give you some perspective:

https://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/BeginnerArticle/BeginnerDos.htm

Have fun!

So Steve, how about a Smallbear [read beavis] board?

[instantaphex]

Keep in mind I'm completely new to this so even moving from schematic (and layout) to breadboard will take me quite a while...Maybe I'm starting with too ambitious a project,

It's more pedal than I would have suggested for a first build, but probably doable If you breadboard first. My Beginner Dos and Don'ts might give you some perspective:

https://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/BeginnerArticle/BeginnerDos.htm

Have fun!

Nice tips.  From the parts list you sent, I see it's possible to substitute for caps with slightly lower ratings, that's good to know.  From what I've read here and other places, op-amps preferences are highly debated and differences in tone are quite subjective.  Well as long as I know the parts don't have to be 100% the same, I may try experimenting a bit.  I plan to have this on its own breadboard for a while and not solder a single lead until everything is planned out.

I've also seen a layout for this same pedal.  The problem is that I really don't quite understand how to read a layout.  It seems to differ to some degree from the schematic.  I also have no idea how to know which components are connected?  I know that this particular builder did at one time wire point to point.  He has since moved to PCB but understanding the layout would really help me get from breadboard to perfboard or PCB much faster.  Any tips for reading those things?

[smallbearelec]

So Steve, how about a Smallbear [read beavis] board?

If I were to offer anything like this, it would be a kit rather than a fully-assembled piece of gear. I'm thinking that the market is maybe hundreds, not thousands. That would mean hand assembly rather than factory mass-production, and so the cost would be fairly high. But to provide pieces that the builder puts together and solders, maybe. I'll have to think it out in between working on 62 other ideas.

[smallbearelec]

From what I've read here and other places, op-amps preferences are highly debated and differences in tone are quite subjective. 

In spades. Any differences between op-amps will be Very subtle. Much more important are choice of clipping diodes, coupling caps, design of the tone section.

I really don't quite understand how to read a layout...Understanding the layout would really help me get from breadboard to perfboard or PCB much faster. 

If you mean the layout from tagboardeffects, that's a buildable layout on stripboard:

http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=68

which I supply to Aron's store. Order from him if you decide to build that way. Other people can better answer questions about how to work with it, as I usually use perf. As I noted in my article, Don't try doing your own layout for a first build. The one you have is vetted, and you need that assurance at first.

[instantaphex]

If you mean the layout from tagboardeffects, that's a buildable layout on stripboard:

http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=68

which I supply to Aron's store. Order from him if you decide to build that way. Other people can better answer questions about how to work with it, as I usually use perf. As I noted in my article, Don't try doing your own layout for a first build. The one you have is vetted, and you need that assurance at first.

Ohhh, I get it.  It is connected in strips already for you.  I think you're right, I shouldn't try to figure out my own layout.  I'm not quite ready for that.  Again guys, I really appreciate all the help.