Ethics and morals. (This is, admittedly, long.)

[phector2004]

That being said, It's one thing to take a pre-made pedal, throw some metal film caps in it, change some resistors and an LED, and sell it for a profit (ahem..), and another to experiment with a schematic and build it on a breadboard, make some changes to it that you prefer better to the original, solder it onto a perfboard, and throw it in a case to sell to a few friends and hope to get back a little more than you paid for the parts for your efforts.

Isn't that what most pedals out there today are anyways?  


On a small-scale (based on your own judgment), I don't see anything wrong with cloning, as long as you're not advertising it as the original, but rather claiming its a ______ clone, even if its just by word of mouth.

There's nothing wrong with a fuzz face or tubescreamer clone, for example, as it won't have the same "cool" factor as the original (doesn't mean it can't be cooler!). If, on the other hand, you buy FF enclosures, copy the paint, logos, knobs, everything, and sell it as a vintage fuzz face, that's plain and simple fraud... You'd might as well be selling fake Gibsons if you're going to be that conniving!

I don't see anything wrong with making a clone of a boutique pedal. You can clone a Klon, but it won't be built the same way as an original. Different enclosure, different workmanship, etc. Any Zvex pedals won't have the signature designs that make them stand out. Basically anything you make won't be the original, and in our world of people feeling insecure and needing to bring others down to feed their ego, your work won't get the same rep as the original, being a clone and all.

[Jazznoise]

Definitely do it. First, it's really hard to say there is any real pure originality in electronics. The skill is in discovering elements/parameters that are musical (to you) and finding a way to make sculpting sounds with these parameters in real time pleasurable.

I've an octave design I want to try soon - and without thinking you can guess how it's going to work and be right. That doesn't de-merit the idea or the project. I've a particular way I want to be able to interact with certain parts that another person might not and vica versa. The only different between it and another octave might be the choice of gain stage or the tone cap. And that's fine by me. This is not an intellectual property in the conventional sense - no one is losing money by this request. This guy specificly wants one of these pedals made by and modified by you. You are not taking the components from the original designers house, he would make any money by you not doing this.

The devil is most certainly in the details in electronics and you're not going to break away from the laws of physics unless you want to try and build a pedal that only operates when under the influence of the Bose-Einstein Condensate!  Anyway, is the design you're "cloning" for this guy completely uninspired by anything he's seen? Did he just change the gain stages? Cap values? Add a pot that the other guy didn't? Would it matter to you if he did? I mean does that void the time he spent trying out different components or that you will have done?

[earthtonesaudio]

I don't want to seem dismissive, but boy oh boy has this topic been covered off here before, at great length.  I suspect the only thing you'll find more posts about is the Tube Screamer!

It's like he read the other threads, tweaked a few paragraphs, and BAM!  Another derivative thread.




Hats off to the OP if the whole thing was meant to be ironic.

[brett]

Hi
About 20 years ago Foucault did refreshing analyses of authorship and the history of things and thoughts.  He found that lots of people and corporations rob ideas and inventions from others.  They, in turn, get robbed.  This is called progress, and not much is *really* new under the sun.

Don't forget that ethics are completely different to morals. Ethics are concerned with what is good and right for all, while morals are codes of conduct that often serve particular causes or organisations (ie moral codes are different for different people, while ethics transcend the individual).

Wrt this case, it is always ethically wrong to take something that belongs to someone else.  Morally, however, you can do whatever you like.
In my opinion, the ethics here will involve knowledge of where they got the idea from (hard work?  brilliance?  borrowed? ripped off?).
cheers 

[mattthegamer463]

Its like the man who invented the car, should he have to forever pay royalties to the man who invented the wheel?  It has to stop somewhere.

Ethics clearly guide us here without issue.  When you write that it is "100% original design" and sell it to people as your own, with no mention of the real designer then you can't possibly think this is ethical.  An op-amp is an op-amp, it only works when hooked up a few select ways, so what can you do about that? Nothing. 


In my book, if you're not making money from it, and not claiming creation in a public setting, its ethical.  Copy/paste all you want.

[defaced]

About 20 years ago Foucault did refreshing analyses of authorship and the history of things and thoughts.  He found that lots of people and corporations rob ideas and inventions from others.  They, in turn, get robbed.  This is called progress, and not much is *really* new under the sun.

This is reality, and really close to what I was going to post, so I figure I'll add to it a bit.  There are two tricks that need to be performed to stay alive in this cycle:

1) Have a novel idea and make money while you can (i.e. before someone else takes your idea, makes is less expensive/better/whatever, and undercuts you): establish market share
2) Hire enough people will/have enough good ideas to start the cycle over before 1) kills you off your first good idea: retain market share/diversify

OR

1) Take people's ideas, make them less expensive/better/whatever: take market share
2) Hire enough people who are good at reverse engineering/creating "value added" features/reducing manufacturing costs/whatever to keep close on the heels of idea makers: take more market share

So, to answer the original question, what category would you feel proud to be in?  There is much satisfaction in being in either category, and both can be immoral or moral.  The first time you reverse engineer something this will become plain as day because you earned the knowledge you now posses.

Welcome to engineering.  No one cares about stompboxes.  They are the proverbial "gain of sand" in the desert.  IMO, if you're going to get philosophical about something, make it count, like industrial espionage for a possible multi million dollar product or something.  

Capitalism is really good about weeding the weak from the herd.  Have fun with your pedal selling venture!  

[tyronethebig]

zing

[joegagan]

if it is a clone of most any pedal, go for it. except if it is a tonebender mk 2 or 3.

[StephenGiles]

I would pass it accross Geddafi's desk first!

[Thomeeque]

Especially when IP is shown at bottom right of messages.

I strongly hope it's not!

Have you forgot that you are moderator here?

T.

Your IP address is shown only to you and moderators. Remember that this information is not identifying, and that most IPs change periodically.

You cannot see other members' IP addresses, and they cannot see yours.

[markeebee]

If you later sell the same model in multiple numbers through a third party and have no way of imparting that same message, you are a shill.

Sorry, 'shill' was entirely the wrong word.  'Whore', that's the word I was going for.

I take a RMPL philosophy on nearly every board in which I'm a member.

I don't know what RMPL stands for, the only sensible definition I could find was:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rmpl

[anchovie]

how will I know when it's acceptable to ask to be paid for the service?

The key word here is service. I say you should build this for the guy, not only incorporating the feature that he wants but also adding some non-sound-sculpting parts that really add value.

The guy is a pro so he relies on his equipement to do his job. Don't worry about the audio part being based on something - build it in such a way that it won't let him down. Design in (and factor into the price) features and construction methods that ensure that if a roadie plugs in the wrong PSU it still works afterwards, if it gets shaken around in the back of a truck it's no bother, if a crazed fan clambers up onto the stage and treads on everything it survives. Find out what his favourite colour LED is and how he'd like the controls laid out. This is your chance to be involved in the creation of a "signature" item for an artist, so approach it as a colleague rather than a fan.

Steve Vai's signature pedal is a Tube Screamer and a DS-1 in the same box. It was the swirly paint job and faithful electronics that he wanted, not a radical new design.

[Jimi W]

The guy is a pro so he relies on his equipement to do his job. Don't worry about the audio part being based on something - build it in such a way that it won't let him down. Design in (and factor into the price) features and construction methods that ensure that if a roadie plugs in the wrong PSU it still works afterwards, if it gets shaken around in the back of a truck it's no bother, if a crazed fan clambers up onto the stage and treads on everything it survives.

If you do go ahead (which I think you should for what it's worth) I agree with the above 100%. I've built a few pedals for a friend and built a pedalboard for him. He is now touring Europe supporting My Chemical Romance playing to upto 14,000 people a night. I do worry that one of my pedals could break and ruin their set.

Do all you can to make it bomb proof and also make at least one spare. I'd imagine this pro would have a spare pedal board/rack set up. If not then he's very trusting in his equipment! Make sure he can trust yours.

Jimi

[jaysg]

My own twisted sense of ethics says it's alright if it's a Dunlop/MXR/EHx product compared to say, a PaulC Tim(my).  I like PaulC and the other micro-builders out there who are happy to help.   A guy I know built some AMZ MosFet boosts for a major act.  His techs simply weren't into effects enough to do it themselves...they weren't building stuff all the time for fun, so no knowlege, no boxes.

[benl560]

for sure do it if you want to. ive sold a couple clones for like 20 dollars "profit".
thats just about korea wages for the time that went into them.
i make no claim to originality with these. full disclosure as to what it is.
i see no problem with it...

[LucifersTrip]

I've always pondered this example...which is more of an "original design" ?

1) A clone of a classic circuit, like the Sun Face which sounds like the original but is built with improvements for a modern musician with high quality components, etc...

2) An exact part by part copy of a classic circuit with ONE SINGLE COMPONENT ADDED that drastically changes the tone to something completely different than the original.


answer to OP question:
I'd definitely make the pedal for the guy

[jcgss77]

Definitely make the pedal for the musician.  I do commend you for giving your pedals to fellow musicians, enabling others with your given talents is honorable.  My only question is why haven't you been selling this service sooner?

Just don't follow exact published schems, and if you are using your own tweaks/custom tweaks and eyelet board, where is the infringement?

Go for it!