Does Eagle for dummies exist? :)

[therecordingart]

I've used Eagle to draw schematics, but even after 10 years of building electronics I've never done my own PCB layout. Every time I switch to board view I end up randomly moving parts around and can never get a finished layout. I always end up with traces that can't be routed. I've studied similar designs, but still have some mental disability that prevents me from finishing a layout.

Any tips, tricks, ideas?

[defaced]

Persistence and practice, those are my too suggestions.  Layouts are like a game of Sudoku to me (though I can't stand that game).  I mess with layouts endlessly until I think I'm satisfied then I build a prototype.  Then I mess with it more, then I make a board or send off the gerbers to get one made.  Some layouts will not be able to be single sided (obviously) so don't feel bad if you can't get there with a particular project.  Others can be single sided, but should really have a couple of top side jumpers because of trace routing reasons. 

To give you an idea of time spent on a layout, the one I did for the mini signal generator I posted here somewhat recently I probably had the base layout in 2-3 hours then spent 2 more "optimizing" it for DIY etching.  That project would have been alot easier if it were double sided, but alas, design goals are stubborn things. 

[nexekho]

Although I've not designed PCB layouts (just perfboard) I imagine the art is similar to subdivision modelling in 3D - instead of needing to fill a shape without disrupting edge flow/etc you need to get from A to B without crossing any existing tracks and as you practice you'll build a mental toolkit of structural components to complete tasks.

[edvard]

I usually start by making a "dummy" layout with the parts pretty much where they are as on the schematic, but with the signal path from right-to-left (as most boxes go).
Then I start folding up the paths to squeeze stuff together and moving the pots to the top, do an autoroute to get the basic gist of where things could go, then I start ripping up and hand-routing.

Also, pick up a copy of R.G.'s book; I don't have a copy myself to confirm how gold it is, but it comes highly recommended.
http://www.geofex.com/bookpages/bookblurb.htm

[Gurner]

eagle are missing a trick imho ...my heart sags each & everytime i've finished the schematic & switch to board layout!

What is *should* do IMHO,  is when you first switch to board layout ....a prompt appears to ask the user the physical dimensions of the board ... it should then create the outline & dump all the components on there with the least amount of 'crossed' air wires  ...at least that would be a better start than having to create the board dimensions from scratch (chore) then drag alll the parts on there (chore).

personally I don't care where the parts go on the board (obviously with good practises in mind) ....the easiest routes, least links, least vias etc the better ...so I dont work left to right or follow the signal path ...I dump then rotate all my parts on the board initially like a madman.....looking for the most 'low hanging fruit' from a route perspective.

[waltk]

Try DipTrace instead.

[edvard]

@Gurner:
What you're talking about is something like "autoplace" which many high-end PCB design softwares have.
In researching the topic myself, I never saw positive comments on autoplace utilities, and plenty of hopefuls who think it's a grand idea.

That said, you can search Cadsoft's ULP archive for a few attempts some users have made:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/user-language-programs/?language=en

@WaltK:
Many folks extol the virtues of diptrace, but I never seemed to "get" it.
Maybe because I'm using Linux, and diptrace isn't particularly fond of being run in WINE, I dunno.

[waltk]

@WaltK:
Many folks extol the virtues of diptrace, but I never seemed to "get" it.
Maybe because I'm using Linux, and diptrace isn't particularly fond of being run in WINE, I dunno.

I know what you mean.  I never seemed to "get" Eagle.  Haven't tried DipTrace on Linux via WINE.  It may just be a matter using the right graphics mode.  You can choose Windows GDI, Direct3D, or OpenGL.  I use Direct3D on my machine, but it might play nicer with WINE using one of the others.

In DIPTrace, when you create a PCB from a schematic, by default it places the components in the same relative locations they were in the schematic.  It has an Auto-Placement function, but every time I've tried it, it came up with some kind of wacky placement that made no sense to me at all.  I think in any of these tools you ultimately have to do manual placement.  Having said that, the Autorouting function is pretty good - and tweakable.  It doesn't take a huge learning process to get productive with the basic features.  Judging from the comments in other threads, us DipTrace-heads are in the minority.  But there enough of us that you can usually get some help here.  Did I mention it's free?

[edvard]

Yes, here is where I was introduced to DipTrace, and it came with good recommendation, and so I tried it.
I've tried quite a few PCB and Schematic Capture softwares and they all seem to have a fairly steep learning curve, but each one has it's own particularities that some people find easier than others, which is where "getting" the software comes in.

IIRC, running DipTrace with OpenGL was the most successful, but it was still a bit laggy and the schematic window had a bad habit of not redrawing when you moved a part; I would have to zoom out and then back in to force a re-draw.
There were other issues probably mostly due to it not behaving like Eagle 

Having parts layed out when switching to board mode sure is nice though, I'll give it that.
Heck, maybe I'll give it another shot next time I upgrade my OS.

[therecordingart]

After farting around last night I was able to get a layout almost complete. My latest issue is that I can't get a ground pour to completely pour. There are gaps.

[Mike Burgundy]

ground poors can be tricky, especially if you're picky about aesthetics... That's not the biggest hurdle though, just a minor nuisance.
Keep at it, you'll get a feel for it. I feel it helps (it did for me) to do some layouts *on paper*, even just as an excersize. Simple stuff, one or two transistor circuits, one opamp circuits, just to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Opamps are easier than trannies. Somehow that helped me more (or so I feel) than learning a high-end computer-based layout system thingy. You'll grow a feel of what should/could/would go where and why.

That said - as Ed said RG Keen has written a *brilliant* book on pcb design and strategy specifically for guitar effects, although I think there are availability problems. If at all possible, get it. I have it, it's worth it. Bug RG until he writes one by hand if you have to. (RG: are they available again? World needs to know! ;P )

[therecordingart]

ground poors can be tricky, especially if you're picky about aesthetics... That's not the biggest hurdle though, just a minor nuisance.
Keep at it, you'll get a feel for it. I feel it helps (it did for me) to do some layouts *on paper*, even just as an excersize. Simple stuff, one or two transistor circuits, one opamp circuits, just to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Opamps are easier than trannies. Somehow that helped me more (or so I feel) than learning a high-end computer-based layout system thingy. You'll grow a feel of what should/could/would go where and why.

That said - as Ed said RG Keen has written a *brilliant* book on pcb design and strategy specifically for guitar effects, although I think there are availability problems. If at all possible, get it. I have it, it's worth it. Bug RG until he writes one by hand if you have to. (RG: are they available again? World needs to know! ;P )

His book is on my Christmas wishlist prioritized at the top.

[tyronethebig]

Heck with Christmas, its on my Nowmas list. Anyone sell it besides smallbear?

[senko]

Sparkfun has a couple of really nice tutorials on their website.  They do everything from layout to creating your own parts.  Combine that with some expert Youtube videos and you'll see just how easy it is.  However, I've probably logged about 100+ hours in Eagle now and it seems intuitive to me now.  The PCB fab house did some excellent work on my boards and I can't be happier than knowing my design is right there in front of me.

Some tips:
Use the command line.  Type "mo" for move, "r" for ratsnets, "gro" for group.  You don't have to type the whole word out and you can repeat commands by pushing up and down.  Really convenient.  If you get good, you can start writing scripts.
Ctrl+click when you're moving stuff around snaps them to the grid.  Start with bigger grids to get things organized, then work off that.
Don't use the autorouter.  Too many vias come up and the paths the routes take are usually just a waste of board space.
Measure everything.  Know how big your case is and measure components so that you have space for close layouts.
Don't use Wire, use Net.  Use Label and Text in your schematics like commenting in code; it's more for the future you than anything else.
Double-check every connection.  My OCD perfectionist ways come in handy here.
Don't trust other peoples' library (gm-regulator has a couple of flubs, you've been warned)
Make your own parts and use datasheets to get it perfect.  This probably has increased the quality of my PCBs the most
Print it out before you send it out.  Put the print out onto some foam and stick the components through the through-hole.

As for the auto-placement, I've never known any other CAD programs.  Typically, I create a board once I get a basic schematic set up and group components together as I go.  Works for me.

[defaced]

Don't trust other peoples' library (gm-regulator has a couple of flubs, you've been warned)

That one's bit me before.  Really effing annoying because it was a perf build (much easier for me to layout a perf layout in Eagle than any of the other DIY tool out there).

Don't use Wire, use Net.

Why?  I tried to find a difference between them but I guess I'm missing something. 

[senko]

Net will automatically add a junction and connect to components without having to double-click.  It's just more convenient.  Also, the Eagle CAD tutorial PDF basically says to use net instead of wire for just about everything ("The WIRE command is used to draw lines.").

Another tip:
Don't start putting text all over the board until you are absolutely done.  It'll be alphabet soup in no time!

[defaced]

Ah ha! I like that.  You can tell I read the instructions 

[deepMago!]

I find useful the little tutorial in Gaussmarkov's site. Some useful tips about PCB routing.

[url]http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/tools/software/eagle-cad//url]

[jbgron]

+1 for RG's book.  I would be lost without it.

[edvard]

After farting around last night I was able to get a layout almost complete. My latest issue is that I can't get a ground pour to completely pour. There are gaps.

Gaps in ground pours I have noticed (on my boards, anyways) because:
1- The clearance is too large.
2- The place where the ground needs to go is blocked by other traces or parts in the way.

In case 1, try taking the clearance in a few notches, and make sure orphans are off unless you don't mind them.
In case 2, turn orphans on (so you can see where it would *like* to go) and move some traces so the ground can sneak in where it's supposed to, or move parts so the ground end lands in a pour field.

Have you looked at Gauss Markov's ground pour tutorial?
http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/tools/software/eagle/ground-pour/