What are the legal qualifications of a "unique" pedal circuit?

[acobberson]

Strange question, but what exactly needs to be different/changed/unique within a circuit in order for a person to claim the circuit as their own?  For instance, I'm building a boost pedal based on the Z Vex Super Hard On circuit, how much of the circuit has to be different than the original for me to claim the circuit as my own and build/sell them in quantity as my own pedal design?  Any help or leads toward the legal side of this would be appreciated.  Thanks!

[Govmnt_Lacky]

There is PLENTY of info on this very subject on the forum. Just use the SEARCH function at the top of the page and search for applicable answers.

It must be spring time 'cause the flowers are BLOOMIN' 

[StereoKills]

You can build and sell even the same circuit as long you design your own pcb. This is why there are so many clones out there.
That said, put your own spin on it, play around with it on the breadboard until you get something you really like and is (at least slightly) different from everything else out there.

[iccaros]

Strange question, but what exactly needs to be different/changed/unique within a circuit in order for a person to claim the circuit as their own?  For instance, I'm building a boost pedal based on the Z Vex Super Hard On circuit, how much of the circuit has to be different than the original for me to claim the circuit as my own and build/sell them in quantity as my own pedal design?  Any help or leads toward the legal side of this would be appreciated.  Thanks!

If the conversation starts with, I based it on.. I would say it hard to claim its original, but it could be a new approach. At this point very little in technology is truly original, its all built on something.

IF something is patentend, I have one.. not for pedals but for encryption devices over IR. there must be three points of difference, but little of any of this is under patent. 

[R.G.]

And another one rides the bus.

[R.G.]

Upon further thought, I'll try to be helpful.

- Originality only counts where patents, copyrights, or trademarks are involved.
- Well, OK, it counts if you make advertising claims that it is.
- Circuits can be patented, not copyrighted or trademarked.
- If there is a patent involved, yours or other people's, you need legal advice.
- If you have to ask if it's original, it's not.
- Counting three components changed, or two wired, or six different parts shapes will never get you there.

[merlinb]

Strange question, but what exactly needs to be different/changed/unique within a circuit in order for a person to claim the circuit as their own? 

On the other forum all you have to do is copy out the circuit, sign your own name on it, and add a false date!

(Yes, you guessed it, I have been stung this way...)

[acobberson]

Thanks guys.  I really appreciate everyone's input. 

To be clear, I'm not planning on ripping anything off.  I have built plenty of clones for friends (for the cost of parts) to get as much practice as I can and I've always been completely upfront about what I was doing.  I've recently gotten more into breadboarding.  I built an SHO type boost for a friend and made some changes in the circuit in order to better tailor it to his rig and desires.  Thus, this thread was born!  I'm in no position currently to build in mass, but one off's are becoming more and more of an opportunity for me.  Just want to do my best to think ahead and understand what I'm getting myself into before I quit my full time job, haha (I wish).  Thanks again everyone.  I'll definitely peruse the site for more info on the matter.

[Puguglybonehead]

Under most international laws, an electronic circuit is not patentable. Electronic circuits are regarded as merely parts of a language of sorts. Patenting an electronic circuit is like copywriting a word or a phrase. It can't be done. The United States seems to be the exception to this rule. (but then again, you can litigate for almost anything in the US)

A printed circuit board layout can be copyrighted, as can the architecture of a microchip, but the circuits within cannot be protected at all. As long as you are not duplicating somebody else's layout, you are good to go. That is how AMD were able to make PC processors without Intel being able to do anything about it. They duplicated most of the functions, but none of the chip architecture.

[Earthscum]

acobberson, IMO that's a fairly proper stance to take on it. It's fun, or you wouldn't have started building, and it's fun to build for your friends and others. If it becomes something, then awesome, and if not, then it's still a fun hobby. I look at cloning for friends and such as just fine, unless parts and a 6-pack exceed the price down at GC, ya know? Even then, if you want to clone something for yourself for the challenge (LPII, hehe... but I'm talking even in-production stuff), then where's the harm in that? If I had a business, I couldn't look down on a customer who does something himself instead of buying from me. Now if he starts doing it beyond friends and family, well... I would start to have issues. Up to that point, it would probably be fun and help break the monotony to even help the guy out if he had questions. But, that's the kind of person I am... I have no real biz sense, lol... just what I think things should be like. 

[therecordingart]

It's hard to be original. There are plenty of commercial designs that come to mind that are essentially the same damn thing from different companies. When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, what is the different between a Microamp and a Blue Clipper...two clipping diodes and a potentiometer? Two different pedals that do different things with very little differences in the actual circuits. Neither one stole anything from each other. One is an adjustable IC gain stage and the other is a fixed IC gain stage with clipping diodes on the end.

If you breadboard a circuit and come up with a way to make it your own then go with it. Speaking of the Blue Clipper...it has provided a fantastic starting point for something I've been working on, but is so far from the original Blue Clipper it could never be confused for one. The only similarity is an opamp gain stage and clipping diodes...that sums up a LOT of pedals! Borrow, build, and tweak. If you truly made it something new or improved upon you won't be second guessing it's originality.

[oldschoolanalog]

From the "somebody had to go there" dept....
It would appear from looking at whats out there the important only legal issue is that nobody files a lawsuit against you. It's like Dodge City w/all the bootweekers, copycats & cloners.
Vodka time

[chromesphere]

lol its springtime

I might not be the norm here, but i reckon if you can build a guitar pedal that doesnt use someone elses layout, is reliable and well made, and you can actually sell it for a profit that was worth the countless hours building, designing, testing, painting, soldering, etc, then go for it.

Edit: Theres a guy on ebay i see building cheap knock offs of current pedals on vero (not insinuating thats what your doing acobberson, maybe this is OT, im just talking out loud).  He sells them for 30-60...sometimes he gets 90...some have a start bid of 1 dollar and dont sell.  Seriously, who could be bothered with that?  All that time and effort for zero to, if you strike it lucky, 50 dollars profit...screw that...

Paul

[acobberson]

@Earthscum... Thanks man.  That's pretty much my take.  I do it for fun and because I love to learn and build things with my hands.  (pedals, tables... houses of cards)

I'm definitely not the one selling on eBay, haha.  I've also pointed friends towards buying the real thing in many cases where I felt my "take" on the design was not up to par or the build was too complex for me.  It's definitely not a "stick it to the man" attitude.  I LOVE boutique builders and what they offer, that's what got me started in the first place.  Reading through these forums and soaking up the knowledge until I felt comfortable busting open my Boss DS-1 to try a mod, then trying a GGG kit, then a clone on vero board and finally breaboarding... isn't that a natural succession?  Unfortunately we can't all attend engineering school, but we can read AS MUCH as possible, learning from the masters and then pushing ourselves towards something new.  If no one was doing this there would be no next generation of builders.

I will say this though, it is unfortunate that there are some people out there who are comfortable making a quick $ off of someone else's time and sacrifice.  That will never be my intention.  My question was merely one of concern.  I wanted to make sure I wouldn't become one of those types (and I say that with the least amount of judgement possible).

Cheers all!  Thanks for input.

[Bill Mountain]

I'll tell you one thing that happens to me all the time.

I started working on guitars, then I started working on amps, and I finally found that I really enjoy playing with effects (mostly preamps and dirt boxes) because the space and the finances required are minimal.  I believe this is the same reason so many other people are into building effects.

I'm not a guru (and never will be) but I'm at a point where I can come up with a design in my head, draw it out on paper and it'll work and sound just like I had imagined 80% of the time.  Some of these ideas will be based on something I've seen and some of them will be plucked out of thin air but I don't ever intentionally build clones.  I always end up wanting to push the boundary of my knowledge on my new design and in my research I will ALWAYS find out that someone had done something the same way I did 10 years ago (sometimes as much as 20 to 50 years ago)!  Most of the time my research will lead me to this very forum.

So what I'm getting at is that (using the SHO for example) there is nothing new to be found with a Mosfet gain stage.  You may find applications that aren't normally used in stomp boxes and you'll most likely find out why upon further testing.  So if you want to sell a Mosfet boost do it and I hope you can make some money but don't fall into the trap of claiming originality.  Some other forums will eat you alive for such claims.

[midwayfair]

AMZ FX has an excellent editorial that ought to be required reading for anyone in the DIY or hobbyist for profit arena. It describes your rights and the rights of the designer, and it briefly goes into the ethics of the situation. http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm

As much vitriol as there is about "that other forum" around these parts, half the time "that other forum" is ripping apart peoples' absurd claims of originality.* If you chance two parts in a circuit, it's not yours, it's a modified circuit that the originator isn't building. Give credit where credit's due, and take the appropriate credit for what you did. Just be honest.

*Let's try a thought experiment: without publicly available circuits, how could you compare your circuit to someone else's, and how would you know if it's original? Can you imagine the crap storm that would come about if people COULD copyright a circuit, and multiple people created the same simple thing simultaneously and sued the other? Or if people started copyrighting circuit genetics like a voltage divider network? As others have said, there's not much room left for true originality in the parts common to small audio circuits, but there is a near-infinite variety of tweaks. Personally, I have fairly liberal views on intellectual property rights.