Shin-Ei Siren-Wah-Surf-Tornado (HA-9P) - problem with siren cicuit

[Strej]

This is my first posting to this forum, so hi to everyone!

I'm trying to build a copy of old Shin-Ei pedal, but i can't get the siren module to work. Schematic with siren part marked:

http://obrazki.elektroda.pl/5762705500_1339689454.html

Simulation of mentioned circuit:

http://goo.gl/vJDia

In simulation it works as it should: there is a wave of frequency above 1kHz (I've changed one cap value to get the signal faster on the simulation, and added one 10k resistor to get rid off DC - is it a good idea?). But when I breadborded it, there is simply nothing on the output. I'm using 2n5088, because there's no 2sc828 to buy here in Poland - could it be a bad replacement? And is Hfe critical in this application? I'm not also shure about capacitors orientation - it is not marked on the schematic. There is no part numbers, but I think, that a cap going to Siren Volume pot should have "-" on the pot side, cap between transistors: "-" on the left, and the rest "-" on the ground. Is that correct? May be, that a schematic is incorrect? This is not the best drawing I ever saw, there's a lot of connection crossing, so maybe some connection point was missed? I'm not new to DIY effects, and I'm sure that I've connected everything correct (I'm checking it for two weeks now on self designed PCB and on breadboard). Typical effects debugging is much easier 'cause you can trace the signal loss to find a mistake, but this is some kind of feedback loop so EVERY part can be suspected. I know that it's a lot of questions, but I'm trying to help you to help me . I'll apprieciate all suggestions.

[tubelectron]

Hi Strej,

I have the original Apollo/Shin-Ei HA-9P : it has some issue, and in fact only the wah works correctly.

The Tornado is a noise generator through the wah
The Surf is tha same but through the volume
The siren works more or less, but badly, and I think it is a rising and falling tone generator

I unfortunately do not have the time to repair it, but I think that the lytic caps are the culprits...

I have the same schematic as yours and it is correct.

A+!

[Electron Tornado]

I used to have an original HA-9P. The siren was about the cheesiest siren ever. It reminded me of a toy. The tornado and surf were pretty cool, though. Use that tornado for some Bridge of Sighs action.

[tubelectron]

The siren was about the cheesiest siren ever. It reminded me of a toy.

Even if mine doesn't work has it should, I am akeen to agree... So that's why I am not in a hurry to repair this pedal !

A+!

[Ronan]

I would love to build a standalone siren pedal, that wails up as you hold the stomp switch down, and falls when you let go, the siren mixed with the guitar signal. A 2-tone siren like those English air raid sirens would be nice. Anyone have any circuit ideas?

[PRR]

[tubelectron]

would love to build a standalone siren pedal, that wails up as you hold the stomp switch down, and falls when you let go, the siren mixed with the guitar signal

I thought that the HA-9P's siren would have sounded like that - it would be logical and it's possibly the truth - but I can't tell since mine is defective... And I don't care too much about this pedal, in fact !

A+!

[artifus]

google 'dub siren schematic' and you'll find plenty of 555 and transistor wailers.

[Ronan]

Circuit breadboarded, sounds good enough for my purposes! I used 2N3904.

Edit - BTW thanks PRR.

[tubelectron]

Ronan,

Do you mean that your recent breadboarding of the HA-9P siren :

Circuit breadboarded, sounds good enough for my purposes! I used 2N3904

gives you the result you described :

I would love to build a standalone siren pedal, that wails up as you hold the stomp switch down, and falls when you let go, the siren mixed with the guitar signal.

Please let me (us) know : it would then be a motive for deterring my HA-9P...

A+!

[Ronan]

Yes, the HA-9P siren circuit, it goes up with the switch on, and falls when the switch is opened. I used a 1uF instead of the 0.5uF cap in the 2nd transistor's emitter, which lowered the peak frequency and gave something closer to the 2-note siren sound I was looking for, and I used two 2M resistors instead of 470k resistors to charge and discharge the 10uF cap at the base of the 3rd transistor, which gives a slower rise and fall time. The stock circuit sounds very much like a typical police siren (in Australia), but they use a few different siren sounds these days. It's not hifi, but good enough I think to put through my guitar amp during a solo towards the end of a good fast rock song. If nothing else, it might wake up the audience, or at least make them smile

[PRR]

> a typical police siren (in Australia), but they use a few different siren sounds

If siren is your thing, don't mess around.

This box has ten different sirens. Also nine animals, and 50 tinkley songs.

WLO345 - Wolo Animal House Electric Horn and P.A. System
http://www.wolo-mfg.com/spec.htm  (scroll down to "animal house")

I got mine for US$40 from JC Whitney. Check their home page: they usually have a "3 days only!!" code for free shipping.

What I really wanted was to make a stuffed alligator head "roar". Gator is not one of the 9 animals, but 'bull' is good-enough for a joke (and switching to 'hen' or 'frog' is a good double-joke). Forty bucks with waterproof speaker (this is for a car) is unbeatable.

The "50 songs" is obviously the repertoire heard from summer ice-cream trucks. That's probably a primary market for this product.

You could tap the "speaker" lead as a hot line-level to your board. Then a 9V battery would run it for hours. Or use the speaker, it wants 9V-14V at up-to 250mA LOUD, 100mA moderate. LOUD would carry a small club naked. Moderate into a voice mike to PA will work too.

The "powerful PA system" feature is 2 Watts, less than a car radio, though the teeny-horn speaker is gratingly loud per Watt.

They have other boxes with less frog and more sirens. One claims 20 Watts which might fill large venues.

> in Australia

JC Whitney is strong US/Can but shipping downunder is extreme, and I strongly suspect this product is made closer to you than to Chicago. Look around.

[artifus]

What I really wanted was to make a stuffed alligator head "roar". Gator is not one of the 9 animals, but 'bull' is good-enough for a joke (and switching to 'hen' or 'frog' is a good double-joke).

that sounds awesome prr!

If siren is your thing, don't mess around.

how about these? http://www.futurlec.com/Others/HK620pr.shtml or http://www.futurlec.com/Others/HK625pr.shtml

*edit* although thinking about it a kiddies toy could be picked up from a dollar store/pound shop or thrift store/charity shop and hacked into a pedal or amp pretty easily too.

[tubelectron]

Yes, the HA-9P siren circuit, it goes up with the switch on, and falls when the switch is opened. I used a 1uF instead of the 0.5uF cap in the 2nd transistor's emitter, which lowered the peak frequency and gave something closer to the 2-note siren sound I was looking for, and I used two 2M resistors instead of 470k resistors to charge and discharge the 10uF cap at the base of the 3rd transistor, which gives a slower rise and fall time. The stock circuit sounds very much like a typical police siren (in Australia), but they use a few different siren sounds these days. It's not hifi, but good enough I think to put through my guitar amp during a solo towards the end of a good fast rock song. If nothing else, it might wake up the audience, or at least make them smile

Very good, Ronan & thanks ! I record your tip (and 2N3904 transistors) about the HA-9P siren to restore mine, unfortunately not so ASAP...

Here's what looks like my Shaftesbury HA-9P :





A+!

[artifus]

great looking pedal. so is surf filtered noise (wind machine ish) and tornado an oscillator (siren ish)?

*link added*

[PRR]

> how about these?

'Pears to be just 3 sirens, two alarm-clock peeps, and a duplicate siren.

Needs 2V-4V, so more stuff needed for 9V-land.

Can't complain about a buck thirty.

[tubelectron]

great looking pedal. so is surf filtered noise (wind machine ish) and tornado an oscillator (siren ish)?

*link added*

It has :

Wah : a conventional, quite vocal and smooth wah.
Volume : it is reverse = when you push, you go to silence, when you release, you go to max volume.
Surf : something between a white and a pink noise generator, level-controled by the volume pedal.
Tornado : the same noise generator, but this time filtered through the wah.
Siren : an independent device that you trigger via a button. It's an audio oscillator as described by Ronan in a post above.

A+!

[sonic66]

i have one of theses too the wah is very nice , not sure how usefull the other sounds are...

[tubelectron]

Yes, so that's why at first tempted to convert it to an fuzz/wah pedal, instead of repairing it. A Muff-Fuzz would replace the noise generator with not so much work on the PCB to adapt it.