Belton Brick Reverb - Which one? (short, medium, long)

[chromesphere]

Thanks for the responses!  Im kind of confused now though lol.  I have a fender twin reverb (an original not a re-issue) and a bad cat hot cat 30r which has a subtle but amazing reverb unit!  Whatever i get, its going to be scrutinised.  I appreciate armdnrdy's comparison with a fender twin reverb, its a pretty revered & lush reverb.  Honestly if i can make something that sounds anything like it, its a huge success in my books!  I think i will go for the short delay, and if it doesnt sound good, im going to find where you live armdndry (that was a huge 'joke' incase the humor didnt come through there )

But i would like to slightly change the topic if i may, are there any free / good layouts to use with the belton brick?  Im thinking etchable pcb here.  Any that you know of?  I can hear Rob talking in the back of my mind "i've already told you 1000 times Paul!  Check my reverb thread!".  (off i go )


Paul

[kodiakklub]

a pedal based on the 6G15 circuit would be amazing. i know boss makes one, but im sure someone in the DIY community could do better. i would happily build it with a short tank if someone coughed up a schematic 

[deadastronaut]

@paul:  ive told you a 100 million times, 'do not exaggerate''...

good luck with whatever you chose man, i'm sure it'll be good either way..i prefer the long reverb as i play a lot of ambient delay vol swell stuff anyway..

i also have reverb on my amp , but i just wanted an instant over the top option too....

[chromesphere]

@paul:  ive told you a 100 million times, 'do not exaggerate''...

good luck with whatever you chose man, i'm sure it'll be good either way..i prefer the long reverb as i play a lot of ambient delay vol swell stuff anyway..

i also have reverb on my amp , but i just wanted an instant over the top option too....

Oh man, you used to words that are like catnip for me....'swell' and 'ambient'   Also, someone on the reverb thread mentioned your circuit is designed for te long delay, so thats a done deal.  I'll demo it when its up!  Thanks for your everyones help!
Paul

[Kesh]

Only ever built a pedal with the long. Sounded great, but never had a chance to compare with the others.

[goldenmonkeycolor]

i suppose they should rebrand the long one as a delay tank then, cause it's obviously not a reverb tank 

Notice how there's no short delay bricks left in stock?

http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=1211

That should tell you which one is more popular.

For the guys that built reverb units with medium and long delay bricks:

How do you know which one sounds better if you didn't A/B the different bricks?

I listened to many sound samples of different builds before I made a decision which circuit to build. I was looking for a reverb that sounded as close to a Fender type spring as I could find. I chose a build with the short delay. I was amazed how good it sounded when it was finished! (read: Fender type spring like)

Now if what sounds good to you is a shimmering slap back, then the medium or long brick is for you.
I can get that same sound with a delay pedal set with a short delay and the short reverb for depth.
IMHO, You can't get the short more realistic sounding reverb with the medium or long brick.

Shorter is better!

Think about what reverb is. Even with the shorter brick, when adjusted to the longest delay time, it starts approaching a slap back type delay.

Go with the shortest!

this thread is in need of some schooling.  it was provided by a couple posters, but i thought it could use a little bit more

maybe you should compare the decay times of the actual reverb tanks that you want to emulate.  fender amps typically use the long decay reverb tanks.  marshalls use short or medium.

a slapback delay is unrelated to reverb decay time.  the belton brick's short reverb time is like what 2 seconds?  do you know how long a 2 second delay is?

Slapback delay has NOTHING to do with the reverb module's decay time. the perceived slapback effect can come from ANY belton brick module based on how you filter and drive the circuit.  If you put a tone circuit on it that cuts highs you will not get a slap back delay effect even if you have control over the 'dwell' .  Cutting the highs will reduce the perceived separation of the reverberations u know what a two second delay sounds like?  you can get slapback on all of these reverb modules, when you turn them up you get more separation between the reverberations, thus creating a slap back effect.

here are the numbers for the decay times of accutronics reverb TANKS- the actual spring reverb tanks

1 = Short (1.2 to 2.0 sec)
2 = Medium (1.75 to 3.0 sec)
3 = Long (2.75 to 4.0 sec)

and belton brick decay times
short= 2 seconds
medium= 2.5 seconds
long= 2.85 seconds


the most renowned reverb units use long tanks.  again it depends on how they are utilized in the circuit.  and marshalls probably only have a 1.2 to 2 second decay.

really the main difference, imo, between these belton modules (assuming you have a good reverb circuit with a well functioning hi cut tone circuit and some other control over the decay time besides the standard 'level' knob, is the modulation.  with enough controls you can get the same reverb length and decay out of the long module as you can the short module- but the long offers more on top if u want it.  BUT- there is modulation in these modules.  A very awesome sounding, somewhat subtle (unless you got crazy decay  time settings and no high cut) then the modulation can get pretty pronounced.  I have a short brick on order, but it is the general consensus that the short brick has less modulation than the medium, and the medium less than the long.  I'm not sure how true that is, it may just be perception based.  because with my long brick i dont hear hardly any modulation if i dial in a short decay and cut some of the highs.  The module time length is really only important if you're gonna build a 1 knob reverb.  but who wants to do that?!?!?!  i've even seen a 2 knob built into a 1590a!

[armdnrdy]

this thread is in need of some schooling.  it was provided by a couple posters, but i thought it could use a little bit more

Well thank you very much Teacher! 

I am afraid that a few of us were misled into thinking that the S, M, and L designation denoted delay time.
Looking at it now....that doesn't make sense. Those designations are referred to as delay time even by sellers

http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Categories

Belton BTDR-2H Reverb Modules
Replace a tank, or build a reverb pedal! Half the size of the standard "brick," horizontal mount, available in Short-, Medium- and Long-delay versions.  

Delay must have been stuck in my head before I looked at the data sheet.

When I built my version of a brick reverb, I noticed when the "reverb" control was maxed, it would resemble more of a tight slap back.
That was not the sound I was looking for. If I want a slap back....I'll use a delay.

For my use, more of a studio plate reverb, to add depth, is what I am looking for.

So...since the min/max delay time isn't denoted on the data sheet, we can assume that they are all the same with the difference being decay time.

[PRR]

Reverberation Time:

Clap your hands outdoors, the sound is gone.

Clap your hands in a room, the sound fades-out to nothing.

About 0.5 seconds in a living room. About 3 seconds in a stone cathedral.

A more technical spec is the time for reverb to decay 60dB. However a good strong clap tends to be about 60dB above the background noise, so clap-count is a useful way to guess reverberation in a room.

Reverb is "dense". There's no single echo, there are so many echos they blend together. In most rooms, over 100 per second.

Reverb time is usually different at different frequencies. A good concert hall has lingering bass for "warmth". A just-built drywall house has mid-bass coloration in reverb, that "new empty house" sound. Lots of thin carpet in a concrete cellar will damp the high treble but let everything else reverberate.

I do not know if the Belton specs use the "60dB" rule, but it is widely accepted and even automated, so I'd guess it is close.

When giving a lecture without a microphone, reverb over 1 second adds loudness and improves intelligibility. Reverb over 2 seconds runs speech sounds together and destroys intelligibility. The optimum time for a no-mike lecture hall is 1.6 seconds.

Music halls have traditionally ranged 1 second for small chamber groups to 3 seconds for huge choirs and impressive pipe organ. The optimum is very dependent on the music: fast slow, staccato legato, sustained (winds) or percussive (naked guitar), harmonic richness, bla bla blah.

Reverb as an *effect* usually means "lots". Certainly more than the room you play in (else you would not want to add reverb). Small rooms, and people-crowded rooms, have reverb times well below 2 seconds, often below 1 second. 2 seconds seems a reasonable value for "obvious but natural" reverb effect. 2.5 or 3 seconds reasonable for "REVERB!" such as Dick Dale surf-music. Whether you want 2.0 or 2.8 seconds also depends on the "quality" of the reverb. Springs have a strong "Hey!" flavor. Digitals tend to have a "Fake" flavor. There are exceptions both ways. And every musician is exceptional in his/her own way.

It's a bit annoying that the Brick does not have a pin or jumper to set different rates. Surely this could be cheaper than making Bear keep three bins full.

[samhay]

^It's a bit annoying that the Brick does not have a pin or jumper to set different rates. Surely this could be cheaper than making Bear keep three bins full.

They must have heard your echo: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=104503.0

[noisette]

Maybe I´m just stating the obvious and I know it´s a little bit more circuitry,
but you could always make the reverbtime shorter with asimple A/R envelope, like this from the

Vactrol data sheet:
http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/perkinelmer/VT500.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t12ysdnndi6g762/VT500%20%28verschoben%29.pdf

That would give you gated reverb, also with some additional options like attack (´swell´) or maybe external triggering...


EDIT: SHxT, again problems with uploading pictures, the dropbox link in the (img)(/img) does not work.
I was talking about the circuit on page 61 of the posted AN