Patchable looper with 3 switchable configurations

[JZA]

I have tried to find a looper that offers 3 or more; inputs and configurations also the configurations must be able to change the order of pedals aswell as just TBP switching. !!!

Yes it's a big ask but I am spending all my time patching pedals for different instruments (bass,Guitar,Rhodes,Synths,Reamp)

obviously most guitarists dont usually need to change the order of pedals , they mostly seem to add or subtract pedals from their f/x chain for lead/rhythm configurations .

My need is more for using the same pedals but in different order with different instruments giving me a nightmare when recording and changing instruments ... however this project will take into account patching and looping so hopefully might find some people who have more knowledge on these subjects or want to learn with me .

OK enough background ... heres a sketch of how this thing looks in my head :


so its basically a looper with 8 send/returns and 3 configurable patch bays :
each configuration with its own input and output ..

So the flow will be something like :

Guitar => InputA => Patch A In => Patch chain => Patch A out => Output A

Like regular patchbays there will be a source and destination points from where patching leads will start and finish ... most loopers source is the left most loop and the destination is the right ... regardless of the direction of usual loopers I will need pedal configurations starting from any of the pedals and finishing on any other pedal . That is why on the left and right of my unit are the input / output patch points .

My biggest concern is maintaining The TBP and true isolation if anther instrument is left in should it affect the ground ??

***1*** I wonder if i really need TRS (tip , ring and sleeve) for the patches or if a common ground will work throughout most or all of the unit
***2*** TBP /True ByPass is the only thing that complicates the wiring and how to map out the wiring although I'm researching that now...
***3*** Buffers is something I'm new to but have researched that a "Cornish" buffer is a clean boost fro loss of signal across long chains ... this might be a nice feature to incorporate at some point perhaps with an on off switch  (this would require power for the UNIT which I have been trying to avoid) depends on overall resistance of the unit perhaps.
***4*** L.e.d's are unnecessary if I could use switches like toggle switches instead of foot switches (I really wish someone would design pedal switches with status indicators that don't require a powered L.e.d )
***5*** I will probably add a tuner send point and few other easy features , but for now I would like to discuss the basic fundamentals of not adding too much "weight" / resistance to the signal path .... would 1/4" patch leads be fine or are there advantages/disadvantages to using smaller 2.5mm jacks/sockets ?


OK any help on any of the points , or advise on other loopers on the market I may have missed with these features.
Thanks all for reading !
JZA

damn.. lost my first post and had to re-log on before posting (copy your message before trying to post big posts) phew !

[JZA]

OK the problem with the schematic is a simple question !
but pulling my hair out   

There are 8 "loops" and 3 "channels" ! ( just so we talk about the right paths )

each channels patches (A1 , B1, C1, are connected to the f/x 1 send returns ) and so forth (A2,B2,C2, --> f/x2 ) etc...

obviously this will incur problems with different channels using the same f/x (one channel will patch over to a different loop than the other channels)

I will need to isolate each channels path whilst leaving the patch leads in the channels !

Maybe an IC would possibly control the routings .... the amount of possible connections is quite vast !

any thoughts welcome.

How do I Isolate the one channel without adding switches to every other option or adding 3 x 8pole switches (if they exist)

[JZA]

Got it , a diode for each connection between patch Send/Receive and f/x Send/Receive !
That should Isolate each channels patch settings without confusing the other channels when not in use .

I still think there is a way of only needing grounds on the IN/OUT and F/x Send/Return thus reducing the amount of cabling and diodes on the patchbays whilst reducing (resistance / possible noise) too 

Incase you are reading this wondering what the hell it is , then the best way I can describe it is three Loopers A,B,C, each with a patchbay to set the order of pedals ... I only intend to use one channel at a time but will allow me to use the same pedals with different configurations for different instrument Quickly whilst recording .

At the moment I use 3 patchbays for Passive F/x for this same reason , I have to connect the pedals to the rear of each ptach bay when I want to change instrument.   I would buy duplicate pedals , but some are very rare and expensive so not viable.

I notice loopers are used by musicians with a single instrument ... I really need this for studio ease of use on many instruments.

[JZA]

Now I realised there will always be a problem with or without diodes as the patch leads on other channels will short the loops ..

9 pole 2 gang Rotary switches is the way to go instead of patch leads , makes it very economic and lighter again in wires !!

OK back to drawing board and just a case of dialing in the numbers for the patch/configuration I want !!

seems like a perfect scenario as it makes the unit smaller !

I have two options in mind , one row of rotary knobs with returns to the common and sends from the terminals  way points

will reply with next drawing:

[JZA]

OK heres the revised version with dial in ordering !

[JZA]

Heres the wiring ... yes it does look a mess , but important points are clear ... the sends are from terminals and returns to the common of the rotary switch ... I sketched this to see if the routing was possible ... the bottom half is really the return wiring and the top is the send... no mention yet of the common ground from In through f/x to out or TBP ... next step is Schematic with Eagle.

[JZA]

Really liking this version the more I think about it ... here is the wiring schematic .. will be studying the ground paths to see if thats the best way ... also will probably apply some TBP switching for all Loops too ?

[mth5044]

Holy cow. That's an awful lot of stuff you got going on there.

Reminds me of this:

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/fxswitchr/fxswitchr.htm

[JZA]

Yes that was how I started with my original plan ,
but I like to think my idea has gotten simpler over time...

It is just 9 rotary switches and some wire now ! Oh and 18 Jack sockets or 20 with 2 extra OUTS.

I am just about to order the parts , I think the design is good now ... can always modify the Rotaries for extra options !

Will be so easy to record now without constant patching .

Any Thoughts regarding Buffers please?

[JZA]

OK just built a little stripboard Pete Cornish Buffer and will be putting it inside the looper but as some pedal setups require it midway through the signal path I will make a way to have this assignable too.. possibly another rotary switch or a toggle by each dial ??

Any thoughts where to get a good looper Enclosure ?? 
14" Wide
3-4" Deep
2" High

Aluminium Hammond style ideally.

Possibly build another buffer for output or might just go with current PreAmp . Will have to test finished unit... but Out put buffer would not need any controls so could be easily added .

(Does anyone actually read this)

[Tony Forestiere]

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/steelstud/steelstud.htm

[duck_arse]

(I keep reading it, but I read lots o stuff hereabouts. there is something about your mass of rotary switch wiring, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.)

[duck_arse]

if you sift through all your pedal combos, I reckon you can reduce your internal wiring. are any pedals doubles? are there any pedals you know won't connect to a certain other pedal? they would be connections to switches you wouldn't need to make.

and network theory. I don't know anything about it, except that you don't need a connection to every machine in the network, only a certain critical # of connections, and you still cover all your conversing needs. (see how good is my terminology?) and there is something nagging in the back of my mind that says the first switch will need 8 connections, but each switch in the sequence needs 1 less connection. that might be game theory, or chaos, or ....

so. proof I am not only watching, but thinking as well.

[JZA]

This obviously is no use o you d.a.!
If you give a little thought, you could conclude  that every wire is necessary , however you would have to conceive how and why it could be used.
Obviously you could design your own for your own purpose . I use many tx modules and guitar pedals with many instruments and microphones
Instead of constantly wiring my patchbays I can now just dial any setting quickly.

Still not sure what your angle is but this works amazing for me.

[yoho]

Perhaps you could study the schematic of the Ibanez UE400. Seems to have a lot of features you are looking for...

[duck_arse]

me? angle? never!

just thought exercises. can't hurt.