so ya wanna make that thing talk?

[pinkjimiphoton]

i believe pete says there " don't forget that i'll be coming back for you"... no bathroom necessary.

[petey twofinger]

i did this a while back , i admit it wasn't really dialed in but it did work very well for QnD style ... plus the price was right so .

used a small speaker from the paiaa gemini amp kit , in a wooden box with a funnel and some surgical tubing , this was only for recording . powered it with a 15 watt fender champ / eq'ed big muff .

the external noise coming off the box was bit much so i used a dynamic mic with some pillows over the box . the recordings came out sounding excellent , but doing this live , that's really cool , hats off to you guys for sharing all this . i would totally go for it , but ... no pa system .

that full range driver , jimi , i think that's the key right there , i had no idea those existed .  

when frampton says "woke up this morning with a Sherman in my hand " , is that a PCP reference , or just a cigar ... its gotta be a cigar , who smokes PCP and then say " hey , lets do it again " the next day .

[pinkjimiphoton]

it's
"woke up this mornin' with a wine glass in my hand, who's wine, what wine, where the hell did i dine?"

the funnel idea is hip, i bet it worked great!

the bleed from my system is pretty bad, to record with it i'd have to do the same.

the full range driver is the key. most peeps try and use midrange/tweeters, and if ya pump an appreciable amount of power into them, it will hurt your ears and
just won't cut... cuz everything is rolled off from the guitar when ya use a driver that doesn't reproduce anything below 500hz, or more likely, 1-2k.

petey, if ya need a driver, let me know and i'll see what i can do about helping ya find the right kind.

if you can develop about 15 watts to drive it with, you could probably use this in the woods with no pa and pull it off..
i'm using a 15 watt crate to drive mine, and it's just about perfect... louder than my singing voice, just barely, but still just enough unless the band is outta control

[petey twofinger]

champagne for breakfast and a sherman in my hand ... i knew that wasnt right ...

[pinkjimiphoton]

lolololol

yeah, well i can see their confusion...lol

[petey twofinger]

ritchie sambora practically ruined talk box for me , until gilmour saved it with keep talking live on that pulse tour ... man that was an amazing show .

talk box thats so freekin loud there is absolutely no ned for a pa system ,  ,  rock and roll , rock and roll , rock ..... and roll . baby .

[pinkjimiphoton]

WATT?

[Mike Z]

Ok Jimi you got me going on this one
I made one out of an ID 30 (30 watt 16 ohms) 40 years ago when I was a kid and ran it threw my supro
best sounding talk box ever
I still have the driver and have allways wanted to box it up and use it live
I think using a tube amp is the key
after reading this post I was thinking what about connecting the driver to the speaker extention jack on your amp
and have a circuit that would adjust/limit the volume to the driver down ( way over my head ) would be to cool
or do you think it would be over kill

[petey twofinger]

http://youtu.be/iY6-5aL8zT0

>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKGAsBsYjSk

[pinkjimiphoton]

Ok Jimi you got me going on this one
I made one out of an ID 30 (30 watt 16 ohms) 40 years ago when I was a kid and ran it threw my supro
best sounding talk box ever
I still have the driver and have allways wanted to box it up and use it live
I think using a tube amp is the key
after reading this post I was thinking what about connecting the driver to the speaker extention jack on your amp
and have a circuit that would adjust/limit the volume to the driver down ( way over my head ) would be to cool
or do you think it would be over kill

don't do it unless you can completely "float" the talkbox... sorry, above my paygrade...
but i believe you'd need either a second output transformer or non polarized caps on either end of the driver or something.
you get a substantial padding in the tube especially if ya use surgical grade rubber.. i use1/2" clear poly, it's harder and louder, then use a 3/8ths tube that's softer
in my beak. i put enough tube sticking out where i can work the mic without gagging. THAT takes some practice.

linda lovelace or jenna jamison research may help. i dunno. the thing is, ya gotta either eat the mic like sir david does in the videos petey posted,
or like i do, make it a little longer. depending on how close you get to the diaphragm of the mic being in a direct 1:1 with your mouth. so moving it around a little can make some things a bit easier.
also, you want to switch it. switching is easy all ya need is a spdt switch. connect all the grounds together, hot from amp goes to common, hot to speaker on one pole, hot to talkbox on the other.
somebody smarter than me could probably tell ya how to use the audio itself to light led's if ya went with a dpdt instead.

but ya really don't wanna necessarily have the talkbox and stage amp on at the same time other thantransitionally.

that's why i a/b mine early in my chain and when i hit the "both" y button, i have both, which is handy from extricating the whole mess from my throat without gagging myself or worse, and being able to switch to guitar.

[JRM]

I've just made a talkbox out of a Pyle Pro PDS432 Compression Driver (8Ohm, 500W max, 400-8kHz, 102dB/W@1m) a Gardenia quick coupling (yes it's a gardening hose connection) and a crystal clear tube of about 20mm outsider diameter. I drove it with my Ruby with both gain and volume maxed out and it sounded quite good but lacks some power as the volume out of my mouth is lower than average conversation level. It also has some hiss as I experimente when I use the Ruby with my headphones. My Ruby has the standard LM386N-1 that has na output power of 750mW for 10%THD@9V Vs (Power supply voltage) and 8Ohm load. I want to build a dedicated amp to power the Talkbox but I doubt if I'd just make a LM386N-4 based Ruby to have a little more power, a bridged version or something else. I think that even with the losses on the system (coupling tube, etc.), with 102dB/W I don't need more than 2-3W to make a loud enough talkbox that I can use at home and mic & PA if I want to use it live. I didn't want to loose the tone that I've got with the actual Ruby...

[pinkjimiphoton]

the pyle driver is your problem. it rolls off everything from the middle of your guitar's tone. 500hz is around your a at fret 2 of your g string... actually, probably in the neighborhood of b or c. you're throwing away most of the frequencies of your guitar. you need a full range driver.

the one you built you could pump 100 watts into, and it will still sound weak. it has no lower mids or bass response. you're literally trying to get bass out of a tweeter bro, it just plain don't work right.

not to be a buzzkill... but while you MAY be able to drive a proper driver with a ruby with limited dynamics and headroom (and i LOVE my ruby) the pyle pro one can't cut it. it IS one of the ones i looked at (parts express) when i was replacing my original.

none of the modern ones have enough frequency range to actually work right. the self contained rocktron banshee 1 and 2, same deal. at 5 watts, they should have plenty of power, but think about crossovers..... the power is needed in the bass , then the mids... and far less for the highs.


you need a full range pa horn driver.  the bottom line is you need it to go down as low as 60-80 vibrations a second, not 1,000. you're losing probably 90% of the output of your guitar at present.

i mean... will it make talkbox sounds? yeah, kinda... weasily thin ones at a lower volume than you'd expect. but ya can't get a low b string to come thru a 1 inch tweeter. same with the talkbox bro.

hit evilbay, ham swap meet, whatever, and get an old community or ev or university horn... may cost ya 20-50 bux, but when ya try it, you WILL be amazed at the difference. i guarantee it.
your ruby will be probably loud enough then.

but still, in practice, i've found 10-15 watts to be minimum necessary to get it loud enough. you need it coming out of your beak at least as loud as you can sing. right now, i'm using a crate 15 watter designed to run an 8 ohm 8" speaker into the 16r driver... so i'm getting probably 7-8 watts with the volume full and the gain about 75%, and it's just about right.

[JRM]

The Pyle driver has specs near the Electrovoice 1823M of the vintage takboxes like Golden throat by ehx. Although it cuts @ 400Hz that means I have plenty of range still to make it sing. Tonewise is there, I just need to power it up. I might try it with my Laney. Check this for great info: http://www.gfworks.jp/talkbox/golden_throat.html

[pinkjimiphoton]

you'll need to power it up alright, but it can't put out frequencies it cannot produce. 400hz is wayyyyyyy too high a roll off.

you can argue with me all day bro, i'm just trying to spare YOU some grief. you will never ever be able to get a significant part of the range of your guitar thru.


there are reasons the golden throat never sold that many. it was a novelty, as talk boxes are.  you're effectively taking everything below 400hz on an eq and sending it to ground.

try it with an eq and see if ya like the tonal change to your instrument. seriously. the ev is a fine driver for leslies etc, but for a talkbox, you need the lower and extended range. 400hz is better than 1k, anyways.

not trying to be a dick here. trying to be honest so ya don't waste time and money. peace.

do the eq thing. it's like the end of welcome to the machine by pink floyd. that's why it's got no ass as you'd described earlier bro.

[JRM]

I've finally had time to give it another test. Although the arguments that 400Hz are a two high cutoff frequency the tone is perfect and it only lacks some power. I've tested with a Blues Driver before the Ruby and it worked better as long as I kept the gain of the BD low (just like a clean boost), increasing the output a little bit and making easier to use the talkbox. I've read bad reviews regarding the Banshee 5W NE5532 + TDA2614 amplifier and several people saying that although a Ruby or a Little Gem MK2 (bridged version) had a great tone to this application (I totaly agree) it needs some more balls. The 50$ question is What Amp should I build?
Several quite good talkboxes operate with compression drivers like the Pyle I've used as anyoone can check here: http://www.gfworks.jp/talkbox/compression_driver.html
On that site one can see that "The requirements for compression drivers for talkboxes are having a wide and flat frequency response (true resemblance of the sound) and compatibility with 100W input".
Here one can see the specs of some of the comercial talkboxes used with quite success with guitars:
http://www.gfworks.jp/talkbox/golden_throat.html
http://www.gfworks.jp/talkbox/voc.html

[pinkjimiphoton]

it lacks power cuz you're effectively wiping out the bottom two octaves or so of the guitar signal, like using an eq to send 'em all to ground.

you pretty much nail it here:

"The requirements for compression drivers for talkboxes are having a wide and flat frequency response (true resemblance of the sound) and compatibility with 100W input".

rubys etc will give a nice tone... but not enough ass to be useful. in my real world, real life experience, you need a good 10 watts minimum to cut it... lately i run a crate gx15r to drive it, which is just about enough.

if you can't get the talkbox to work as loud/louder than you sing, it's more of a toy than a tool.  ya gotta be able to get it loud enough for the people to hear it. ultimately.

i hear ya on building an amp... but if building one just for this application, it's cheaper to probably buy one... or switch your cab and the driver using your stage amp to drive both.

the commercial boxes you cite use old school full range pa drivers btw, not tweeter or midrange horns. you don't need much power to drive them... power is needed to amplify bass frequencies far more than treble... but when ya get to the point where ya try and use it on stage, a 400hz roll off will sound really shrieky and if ya pump enough power into it to try and get the lower frequencies of your guitar will ultimately die. look on ebay for a comunity or old ev horn driver, and you can buy it ONCE and have it last an entire lifetime, and do it right.

the high roll off's sound ok... til ya try the real thing. like switching from a ruby to a plexi stack. for real. not trying to be arguementative, just trying to save ya a lot of time money and experimentation to ultimately discover the truths about these things br'ah... peace out