Glossy paper works better than Press n Peel

[CodeMonk]

Just a general comment on the process and glossy paper. That sure seems like an awful lot of labor getting that paper off compared to PnP etc. Seems like the labor exceeds the price of the PnP.  

I have recently done some testing just using plain transparencies, came really close but haven't gotten the transfer quite as good as PnP which I have had really good luck with. I just ordered a Fab-In-A-Box kit out of interest though.

I use my thumb to get the majority of the paper off.
After that I use a medium stiffness toothbrush to get the rest of it off.
Works like a charm.

[karbomusic]

Just a general comment on the process and glossy paper. That sure seems like an awful lot of labor getting that paper off compared to PnP etc. Seems like the labor exceeds the price of the PnP.  

I have recently done some testing just using plain transparencies, came really close but haven't gotten the transfer quite as good as PnP which I have had really good luck with. I just ordered a Fab-In-A-Box kit out of interest though.

I use my thumb to get the majority of the paper off.
After that I use a medium stiffness toothbrush to get the rest of it off.
Works like a charm.

I get it but just the thumb/brush part seems like a lot more than "peel". I think it takes me about 2 seconds with PnP or a transparency, literally. Of course I get such good results, maybe I'm spoiled. I might try glossy just for fun though. The big trick IMHO with PnP is running it under cold water for a few seconds to harden the toner to get it really crisp FYI.

[Kevin Mitchell]

I'm probably not as experienced as most of the people on this thread but thought I could vouch for glossy paper. I've done about a dozen toner transfers using glossy paper. As a day job I manage a warehouse dealing with copy machines and supplies. Of course it's filled with surplus machines and paper. So I found some Canon double side gloss paper that seemed to be okay for laser printers and I haven't really looked back. High density settings on the machines help also.

Since I have no experience with other medias I can't compare here but I will say that the bigger the transfer the more you're going to rub that hot iron around. I usually get it to the point that the toner starts to press through the top so I actually can see where the toner has softened/adhered and where it hasn't. Over heating/rubbing could mess the transfer up. Practice makes perfect. One problem I sometimes have is the transfer doesn't take with some traces or pads. But that could be due to the board not being cleaned thoroughly enough before hand. Stand by with a sharpie for touche ups but don't be afraid to start with a clean slate if it's too much. Let it soak in cool water, agitate the water to help the paper soak. With the paper I use I know it's a good transfer when I go to peel it and it separates into two layers. Then I thumb the rest off under cool water. Same procedure if/when applying a component layout on the board. Accept I spend a little more time rubbing the paper off to bring back the semi-gloss of the toner.

Oh wait I have used magazine paper before. It worked okay but it was very flimsy and could easily get jammed in whatever printer I would use.

Sorry that was allot of info lol. Hope someone finds it useful.

[Kevin Mitchell]

I want to add that when using glossy paper I've realized that I have to use a chunk of PBC bigger than the transfer. If it's snug(transfer fits PCB closely) I sometimes have problems with the transfer taking around the edges.

[karbomusic]

Let it soak in cool water, agitate the water to help the paper soak. With the paper I use I know it's a good transfer when I go to peel it and it separates into two layers. Then I thumb the rest off under cool water. Same procedure if/when applying a component layout on the board. Accept I spend a little more time rubbing the paper off to bring back the semi-gloss of the toner.

So out of sincere interest. Do you guys go through this extra work/waiting because of the price difference per sheet? I'm trying to find a worthwhile reason but am having difficulty doing so. Mainly because if I have to soak in water and take these steps/precautions just so I can use photo paper, I've lost the savings in waiting/labor. My normal process is pretty much 5 minutes (not including the printing) and the results are nearly flawless...






Again, a sincere question. Just trying to discover the value. If just in the spirit of DIY then I understand better but just wondering. 

[GGBB]

I haven't used PnP, but don't you still have to scrub the PnP from the traces and pads after etching? With glossy paper you don't need to do that, you just wipe the toner away with acetone. So isn't it pretty much the same deal - you have to scrub something off either before or after etching? And depending on the paper used, there is no scrubbing to do after the transfer. I've used a no-name photo paper and vinyl shelf liner that both peeled off completely cleanly.

Cost is probably a factor for most (would be for me anyway), but the main factor I think is the ease and quality of the toner transfer. Once people find something that works for them they stick with it. And not everyone likes the PnP.

[karbomusic]

I haven't used PnP, but don't you still have to scrub the PnP from the traces and pads after etching? With glossy paper you don't need to do that, you just wipe the toner away with acetone.

Nope, a quick swipe with acetone and it's gone in seconds. All PnP does, is contain a substrate that acts as a carrier for the toner to facilitate its transfer to the copper. Thusly, getting it off is probably the quickest step of the entire process. That's why I'm asking, I had seen the photo paper reference a while back, tried it and it was such a mess (comparatively), I ditched the idea out of ignorance.

What is (now) ironic, is as soon as I saw all that paper melted to my PCB I considered soaking it but it was obvious my PnP process was many times faster/easier. I had not seen the soaking piece of this thread back then so it all makes much more sense to me now, hence all my questions over the last day or so on the subject.

On a related note, I have gotten *very* close by using plain clear transparencies (basically PnP minus the substrate) but it wasn't repeatable enough so I decided to revisit later. I'm surmising that toner (being basically a form of plastic) needs a lower melting temp than transparencies so you can actually print on them. So, there is some room for ironing the toner back off the transparency and onto the copper.

Edit: My main interest is that PnP isn't something I can grab in a crunch. I have to order it and wait. If I were to find myself on a plane that is going down and someone screams "Is there anyone who can etch a PCB on the plane?" I'd like to be able to improvise quickly and say "Why yes, I can".

[Big Thurs]

I have experimented with most diy toner transfer solutions and have found that the backing of self adhesive labels has produced the best results, and performed consistently.  The only other popular medium that I have not tried is transparencies, though many get excellent results with them.  I have collected the self adhesive backing from many sources like the large decal sheets that come with kids corvette beds.  I have also purchased a roll of self adhesive shelf liner, which probably has a lifetime supply of the coated paper.  Just my .02

[newperson]

what printer brand/toner are you using with your PnP blue?  Iron temp and time?  Looks like you have your settings down nicely. 

Let it soak in cool water, agitate the water to help the paper soak. With the paper I use I know it's a good transfer when I go to peel it and it separates into two layers. Then I thumb the rest off under cool water. Same procedure if/when applying a component layout on the board. Accept I spend a little more time rubbing the paper off to bring back the semi-gloss of the toner.

So out of sincere interest. Do you guys go through this extra work/waiting because of the price difference per sheet? I'm trying to find a worthwhile reason but am having difficulty doing so. Mainly because if I have to soak in water and take these steps/precautions just so I can use photo paper, I've lost the savings in waiting/labor. My normal process is pretty much 5 minutes (not including the printing) and the results are nearly flawless...






Again, a sincere question. Just trying to discover the value. If just in the spirit of DIY then I understand better but just wondering. 

[karbomusic]

what printer brand/toner are you using with your PnP blue?  Iron temp and time?  Looks like you have your settings down nicely.  

Printer: I use a HP LaserJet Pro 200 M251nw but that was not by choice, just the printer that I already owned. I have had some issues with 3rd party toners however. Some are not so good. I may go find a monochrome version of the same printer so I can afford HP toner.

Temp: Need to check. I began at 325F but is hotter than that now. Once I realized that the temp is more related to not being so hot that the substrate attaches to the PCB and doesn't melt the transparency, I keep it pretty hot now and don't worry about it. I'll actually measure the temp later this evening and report back.

Time:  A couple/three minutes. I begin with a sheet of printer paper over the top then remove that and iron out any spots that don't appear fully transferred. I do manually finish it off with the tip of the iron.

I really should just do a short video since my etches started off not so good then got much better over time. It's all in the technique me thinks. I can say the top few are...

1. Clean the copper, use #0000 steel wool under running water and get it super shiny and clean. I typically favor circles instead of straight lines. Make sure there are no burrs around the edges.

2. Dust, it's amazing how those transparencies get statically charged and suck dust out of the air. You can't even see the dust without magnification. Inspect as you are initially placing on the copper and remove it because wherever it lands, toner won't transfer.

3. Watch it closely when ironing as you can literally see where it is transferring or needs more work.

4. Take it straight to the sink and run cold water on top at an angle which sucks the heat away and solidifies the toner. Don't peel it off when warm or you'll pull the toner right back off.

5. Peel just a small corner at first to confirm. That way, if it isn't right you haven't ruined the "registration" and can lay it back down and work it more (though that never occurs if 1-4 are done properly).

[karbomusic]

Following up on temperature as promised. It's not as high as I thought, my previous heat measurement was flawed. This time however, by using my meter with temperature probe again, setting it under the paper and actually imitating doing a transfer, I'm getting between 300-325F; the variance is due to the thermostat turning on and off. I feel pretty good about the accuracy of the probe because a 50/50 mix of ice/water = exactly 32F. Probe agrees when submerging in that mixture. There is still some room for error between that calibration point and 300F but nevertheless close enough for grenades, horseshoes and DIY etching.  

[bloxstompboxes]

I have that same printer karbo in addition to a Samsung monochrome. I just got the HP and used it to do my first color decal. Seems to work pretty good but I haven't tried an etch yet.

[karbomusic]

I have that same printer karbo in addition to a Samsung monochrome. I just got the HP and used it to do my first color decal. Seems to work pretty good but I haven't tried an etch yet.

I've had great luck with it actually for both etching and all my waterslide decals. The only bad luck is I've had two different third party cartridges that were of poor quality. Once I fixed by shining up the copper contacts, the other just didn't print well, and the third's plastic strip that blocks the toner broke and I was unable to get it out. The HP cartridges that came with it were much better across the board. I need to find a reliable third party refill if such a thing exists because the HPs are too darn expensive.

[karbomusic]

I made a video tonight. Took a little over 30 minutes which includes the exports from Eagle, extra preparation in Photoshop, printing etc... I did time compress it quite a bit so as not to be boring and normally would have been a tad less sloppy but video file sizes add up fast. Hopefully it gets the idea across. This isn't about press and peel per se, just felt like a good time to document something...