PCB Design for Customers

[karbomusic]

WTF guys. Do you seriously charge that much money?

A number of years ago, I owned a new company. It was a corporation with ~15 employees, and everything that goes with that. Early on my partner and I hired a consultant to assist us with well, running a corporation. My partner had mentioned a particular method he had concocted about how much to charge. The consultant (now a mentor, friend and trusted advisor) stopped him and said...

"You need to back into it. You need to calculate what you need to make for yourself net, then add all other taxes and expenses, that will dictate the price you need to charge. If that doesn't agree with the market, you are going to fail but if you calculate from the wrong direction and charge too little, you are still going to fail."

That about sums it up, where the most important thing is to decide how much your time is worth, then do the math to see what the price will be, not the other way around by choosing a price that feels good, then hoping for the best. It's OK to do that, that's what business is and most will respect you for being confident in what you provide. The market will take care of the rest and if you feel bad about charging for what you do, charge little or nothing and consider it a public service which is also fine assuming that's what you (the proverbial you) wants.

[LiLFX]

I charge $50/hr for PCB layout counting the time as time spent working on the design. There have been instances when I've spent more time going back and forth with the customer fixing issues in their design than I have doing the actual layout. To save yourself a lot of hassle, make sure when they send you a schematic they include the footprint/package of each part on the schematic (including datasheets for certain parts). I'd have upset customers if I used 0402 SMD resistors instead of 1/4w thru-hole, but if they aren't specifying then how do I know what they are using? Also, ask if they are home etching or having the boards fabbed. If they are having them fabbed then you need to figure out the design restrictions/cost adders for that particular facility. How many boards are being made and should you panelize the gerber data? If so, what are the panelizing requirements?

There are times that I'll spend 4 hours from the time of the request to completion, but only end up charging for the 2 hours that I was working on the layout. I feel like if I charged like a lawyer I wouldn't get any business.

[PRR]

> I've worked as a translator and got paid the equivalent of $10USD an hour
> $25 an hour?
> This is pretty much the median for independent contractor science editing.
> and about what I make now as a paralegal

Writers are very underpaid.

Mark Twain complained about it. And the funny thing is that word-rate has not gone up since his time (while the cost of everything else rose). Typewriters and word-computers do save some time, true. But publishers constantly moan about weak markets. And there really are too many quasi-competent writers looking for work.

Editors are in a different boat in the same shallow puddle. On one hand their value is less: they don't create anything. OTOH their output has to be perfect, because nobody will check it before it goes to print. One and the other, editor pay is similar to writers.

(Thoughts like this are why I never got into technical writing. Entry was sometimes easy but advancement to a better job was nil.)

Translation is a different field, but similar forces apply. Yes, backward run sentences in languages Germanic. The translator has to re-write a lot, not just new words but new construction, and know the idioms. And it is not a common skill; however there may be a fair number of available folk in most of the major languages.

Paralegals do many chores and my little contact is very old. I would guess it involves selecting boilerplate and inserting specific terms and parties, then proof-reading.

There seems to be a lot of training for "coders" today. I suspect that before long, writing for machines will be as low-pay as writing for humans.

I don't think that paying "per hour" is a good metric for PCB layout. One artist may do a better job in 30 minutes than another will ever do. I know that when I was hot at webpage coding, I could throw-back a perfect job in 20 minutes which others had poked-at for days. OTOH computer programming took me months to do what some sharp kid might do in an hour.

[gtudoran]

I'm charging depending on the following:

- size of the pcb
- number of layers
- type of parts (SMD / THD or mixed)
- type of application (digital, audio, RF etc.)
- number of parts

But as RG said nothing under 50USD / hour, but i'm usually using the porject as a reference.

Regards,
DeX

[Govmnt_Lacky]

I never realized there were so many professional PCB designers on this forum... 

I still agree with Jon. Unless you have "PCB designers INC." after your name on a business card... $50/hr seems a bit too much.

YMMV... 

[Groovenut]

I never realized there were so many professional PCB designers on this forum... 

I still agree with Jon. Unless you have "PCB designers INC." after your name on a business card... $50/hr seems a bit too much.

YMMV... 

Actually if you do business with someone who has "PCB designers INC." after their name on a business card, you can probably expect to pay double or triple that $50/hr.

I think DIY people in the DIY community tend to only think in the scale of DIY (pretty natural to do so and probably why there aren't many offers on DIY forums from pcb designers for their services). I'm fairly certain there are companies and individuals out there looking to have quality pcb design done that would find $50/hr quite a bargain.

It can seem pricey if you are only looking to get one pcb (and probably not worth it unless it's a very complex design) but if you spread the cost over 100 pcbs it only adds 50 cents to the cost of each pcb (for a one hour design). For even small commercial builders who don't have the skills to design or layout. This is a worthy investment as the only limit to the number of pcbs they can make from this design is revision of said design.

[LiLFX]

I never realized there were so many professional PCB designers on this forum... 

I still agree with Jon. Unless you have "PCB designers INC." after your name on a business card... $50/hr seems a bit too much.

YMMV... 

Do you know for certain that everyone here is only a hobbyist? Some of us might actually work in the field for very large and well known audio manufacturers, but divulging that information could create a conflict of interest that gets us fired. 

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Do you know for certain that everyone here is only a hobbyist? Some of us might actually work in the field for very large and well known audio manufacturers, but divulging that information could create a conflict of interest that gets us fired. 

I just take it that a great deal of people on this forum are hobbyists because... ya' know... this is a DIY HOBBY forum. 

I know that there are a far greater number of folks on here that are "commercial" than will admit it although... I cannot imagine why 

So, I guess the responses could be spun the other way too... why would a "professional PCB designer" be accepting work from some DIY "hobbyists" when they know the work will only entail a small run of PCBs and not make them much in the way of profit?

I guess I would wear 2 hats for this.... If I wanted 5 PCBs done for some overdrive project then $50/hour seems quite steep. If I want 300 pieces of a double layer, 500 component, audio processing center.... $50/hour seems quite reasonable 

[slacker]

Someone might have already mentioned this but an hourly rate on its own is fairly meaningless. I'd want to know how much it's going to cost me in total, someone charging more per hour could end up being cheaper because they get the job done quicker.
Hypothetically, how much would a typical stomp box circuit cost? Couple of ICs 30 or so passives, no special layout considerations, off board wiring, max PCB size specified, schematic, BOM and any design rules provided. The schematic's correct, the BOM doesn't have any oddball parts or footprints and I just want Gerbers to give to a fab house.

[Ice-9]

Do you know for certain that everyone here is only a hobbyist? Some of us might actually work in the field for very large and well known audio manufacturers, but divulging that information could create a conflict of interest that gets us fired. 

I just take it that a great deal of people on this forum are hobbyists because... ya' know... this is a DIY HOBBY forum. 

I know that there are a far greater number of folks on here that are "commercial" than will admit it although... I cannot imagine why 

So, I guess the responses could be spun the other way too... why would a "professional PCB designer" be accepting work from some DIY "hobbyists" when they know the work will only entail a small run of PCBs and not make them much in the way of profit?

I guess I would wear 2 hats for this.... If I wanted 5 PCBs done for some overdrive project then $50/hour seems quite steep. If I want 300 pieces of a double layer, 500 component, audio processing center.... $50/hour seems quite reasonable 

If it was a professional service you wanted from a designer of PCB's it makes no difference how many you want, it takes exactly the same work to design it, he would  only design it once remember. Of course as a hobby it is not really practical to go to a professional business for a service like this.

This forum does have many members who are working commercially and while they would charge a full commercial price to design a pcb to another commercial business, many of them are here because it is also a hobby and are happy to help out others either free or for minimum cost.

This is what makes this forum great, many people with so many varied skills in all types of engineering sharing their experience with everyone. 

[Bill Mountain]

I find it strange that this is such a polarizing issue.  Me personally, I pay for plenty of services I don't or can't perform for myself.  From amateurs and professionals a like.  As a buyer or seller, just set a minimum or maximum that the service is worth to you and go from there.

There is no need to adhere to anyone else's standards.

[Electron Tornado]

Me personally, I pay for plenty of services I don't or can't perform for myself.

That's really the crux of the issue.

Am I the greatest or most knowledgeable at electronics? No, but I know waaaay more than the people who ask me to repair or mod their pedals. Is it high-falutin' rocket surgery? No, but it's more than what they are either capable of comfortable with doing themselves. There is also the question of time=money. I'll pay for certain services that I could perform myself, but someone else is better equipped and experienced, AND, as PRR mentioned, what they can do in an hour or so might have taken me an afternoon or all day. My time might be better spent on something else.

[karbomusic]

I just take it that a great deal of people on this forum are hobbyists because... ya' know... this is a DIY HOBBY forum. 

I don't see the relevance. 'INC' or otherwise your time has value, if you can provide the goods INC is relevant only between you and the government entities that want a slice or those who want to sue a slice out of you where INC protects your personal assets. It's up to each person to decide what that time is worth to them, and to the potential buyer if it is worth to them as well. That's part of what makes the free market proverbially 'free'; both the seller and the buyer alone have said choice and any third party beyond government has no say in it.

Concerning hobby forum... I hope none of you actually ever sell a pedal for more than a handful of dollars.

[LiLFX]

This is a forum full of electronics hobbyists, but that doesn't mean we are limited to only doing this as a hobby. I can think of quite a few industry professionals that frequent this forum and others. I'm not claiming to be an expert in the field of electronics or PCB design even though it is my profession. I feel like no matter how much I learn there is stil an infinite amount I don't know. Even with regard to basic theory. I'm a perpetual student that still and will always ask dumb questions.

With that said, I've designed 22 layouts in the past 90 days for various people around the internet. Each one got exactly what they paid for...a clean layout done by someone who does this for a living with industry certs that I can provide if requested. I don't understand the eye rolling and poo poo'ing on other people who are offering their services to others.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

I don't understand the eye rolling and poo poo'ing on other people who are offering their services to others.

Nobody is "eye rolling and poo poo'ing on other people who are offering their services to others." The OP asked for opinions and opinions were given. By multiple people. It is up to them to decide what to do.

Although I will say that some nerves appear to have been touched.

The eye rolling was with respects to the multiple "flower bloomers" that have come and gone from here.

Concerning hobby forum... I hope none of you actually ever sell a pedal for more than a handful of dollars.

Kind of a interesting statement from one who has so much to say regarding charging for services rendered. I know of many people on this and other forums who sell their builds. I would put quite a few of them up against probably anything on your current board.

Hell.. I'm willing to bet that quite a few were "inspired" by ideas and builds shared freely here and on other "hobby forums" 

[karbomusic]

Kind of a interesting statement from one who has so much to say regarding charging for services rendered.

What makes it interesting? I'm not making the assumption people here shouldn't sell because it's a hobby forum.

I would put quite a few of them up against probably anything on your current board.

Apologies, but I have no idea what you are trying to say here. If you are saying hobbyists here can build better products than I, well that should be obvious while again unrelated to the fact my, yours and their time has value - of which each gets to put their own price on. The rest, as I said, the market and competition take care of which I welcome - That also should be obvious. Maybe it's because I'm growing older, but you aren't getting those hours back and hourly extensions on life are generally frowned upon by mother nature so charge accordingly. If that means doing it for free for the betterment of society then that's perfectly fine too.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

I'm not making the assumption people here shouldn't sell because it's a hobby forum.

You didn't assume anything. You outright stated that they are practically worthless in your opinion....

Concerning hobby forum... I hope none of you actually ever sell a pedal for more than a handful of dollars.

Was there another way that statement was supposed to be interpreted? I can't really think of any others...

[karbomusic]

You didn't assume anything. You outright stated that they are practically worthless in your opinion....

I clearly explained I was poking fun at your mention of it. Since I get to decide what my words were intended to mean, I said no such thing outside of pure jest.

Edit: Actually, I see didn't clearly explain it, I must have mistakenly deleted when editing. I was poking fun at your earlier reference to it being a hobby forum and as I said, in jest, nothing more.

[Electron Tornado]

Hell.. I'm willing to bet that quite a few were "inspired" by ideas and builds shared freely here and on other "hobby forums" 

I think you're right. I'll bet that much of the plethora of boutique overdrives, "(fill in the blank)-screamer"s, any dirt box painted green, and a lot of fuzz derivatives have sprung up from people who read this, and other such forums.