Fretless bass tone...

[wirelessJack]

Hi,

I used to post in the forum a while back (3-4 years?) and it was stompboxes that got me started in electronics   Anyway, good to know this place is still here, and after 4 years at university, and several guitars/bass later...I'm still interested in DIY pedals/effects, including digital modelling.

My question is, does anyone know of an effect that can simulate a 'fretless bass' sound from a standard fretted bass?  I know that Zoom have a digital 'defret' effect, but I was thinking analogue.  I realise that obviously the best way to get a 'fretless' sound is to buy a fretless, or defret one...and I'm sure that some bassists might get defensive, but buying a new bass isn't an option, and considering I'm surrounded by components most of the time I thought I'd take up the challenge 

If anyone has heard such an effect, or has a fretless bass and is willing to record the envelope of a plucked string I would be grateful.  I know that the harmonics are more attentuated (string vibrating on finger, not metal fret) and that the sustain is lower.  The sound I was thinking of can be heard on 'cabin music' by Jay Semko (I know, really rare) having a really mellow 'wah' type sound as the string sustains that no effect I have can do for my fretted.  Maybe a form of compresser/envelope filter?

Any idea's/advice is welcome.  Thankyou.

WirelessJack.

[Gus]

I believe I saw a old project posted on the web some time ago. 

Mark H did you have something called the string damper at you ampage page?  I looked for your page the other day and did not find it.

Now what would we need

A compressor I think a FET(1176) or a VCA(THAT chips) would be the ones to look at first.

A edge dectector that "remembers" the last avg level and only turns on the compression when the Pluck is detected and shuts it off when it goes back under the avg level.  A strobed sample and hold a few comparitors etc.....

feedfoward or feedback compressor would need to be worked out


could be a cool thing to work out

I have fretted and fretless basses I believe there is more to the sound because of the difference in energy transfer finger and string to fret to fretboard vs finger to string to fretboard then there is the raw wood, coated wood, high pressure compressed and impregnated wood and other man made fretboards.  I posted this just to be clear you might know this already but being the web one can't tell.

That said it might be a very cool sound of its own not fretted or fretless.

EDIT found the PDF

http://hammer.ampage.org/?cmd=lt&xid=&fid=&ex=&pg=9

[zjokka]

I realise that obviously the best way to get a 'fretless' sound is to buy a fretless, or defret one...and I'm sure that some bassists might get defensive, but buying a new bass isn't an option,...

if the circuit doesn't completely 'defrets' the sound, and you're really interested in fretless playing, you should start practising playing on the frets. it really requires extra precision which will help you develop the skills to play 'real fretless' basses one day.. there's really a smooth tone to be gotten here...

just a suggestion,
ZJ

[Mark Hammer]

Believe it or not, the modded version of the MXR Envelope Filter, which you can find either at www.generalguitargadgets.com or www.tonepad.com can do a respectable simulation if tweaked right.  The mods for the unit allow for variable resonance/emphasis of the filter.  I've found that if you turn the Attack time to the slowest upsweep, and set the Emphasis for a very low amount, so that the sweeping filter sound is just noticeable, it produces a pleasing drone that makes some of the harmonics appear shortly after string plucking, similar to a fretless (I have a cheapo fretless so I know what it sounds like).  The envelope modifiers alter the volume, which is not what you want.  Fretless basses will give you volume.  Their distinguishing feature, however, is the way that vibrating of the string against the fretboard brings out drone-like harmonics a little while after the note has started.  The EF, adjusted right, does not produce an audible "wah", but rather just holds off on the treble initially then gently introduces it.  Subbing a 1M pot for the stock 500k Attack pot will let you get all the fast attack sounds, plus a greater range of slower-onset sounds.

I'm not saying it's a dead ringer, but it does a passable job; the same way Tim Escobedo's "Jawari" pedal does a passable job of mimicking an electric sitar when set up just right.  Tack on a bit of chorus and you're in Jaco territory!

[Paul Marossy]

I'm thinking about converting one of my electric guitars to a fretless. I've been wanting to do that for quite some time now. I should just bite the bullet and do it...

[Mark Hammer]

The string has to have enough energy to get past the damping effect of your finger flesh.  Fretless guitars apparently CAN work, but bass works much much better because the strings have that much more momentum due to their thickness.  Scale length matters too.  Converting long-scale necks is likely to work out better than converting short-scale ones.

Maybe what's needed out there is a neck with graduated/sloping fret height.  On the treble side, fret height is normal, ormaybe even high enough to get some scalloped fretboard sounds.  In the middle two strings, fret height declines to something closer to the old "fretless wonder" height, and by the time you reach the E and A strings, the frets are effectively at the fingerboard level.  This would let you bend thinner strings and get past the problem of finger damping, but still let you use the heavier wound strings as if they were on a fretless instrument.

[Gus]

A link with a cool guitar

http://screamingheadlesstorsos.com/Website/gear.html

[vanessa]

I'm with Mark on the envelope filter.

One other notable an very interesting application of effects on fretted bass to get a fretless tone is Tony Levin's bass on Peter Gabriel's album "So". If you listen to "Sledge Hammer", and "In Your Eyes" Tony is using a fretted bass (Music Man Sabre) and a ton of compression with a octaver (I think it's the old Boss OC-1 or OC-2). Kind of a wonderful cross of the two.

[zjokka]

I'm thinking about converting one of my electric guitars to a fretless. I've been wanting to do that for quite some time now. I should just bite the bullet and do it...

Has this been done before? Seems very interesting...

A link with a cool guitar
http://screamingheadlesstorsos.com/Website/gear.html

So yes, obviously, but no pics or sounds, so why not ask google and guess what?

http://www.fretlessguitar.com

there's even a fretless guitar simulator to show how it would sound. Kinda Hawaian to my ear.
ZJ

[tommy.genes]

Check out this line of convertible guitars and basses. Fretted to fretless at the flick of a switch...

http://mikeyguitar.com

Pricey though ($5k and up for basses) - you could buy two quality intruments, one with and one without frets, for that kind of money. But you couldn't switch on the fly like that.

Be sure to check out the demo videos!

-- T. G. --

[barret77]

Whatever you do, stay away from the DOD fretless effect.
I got a multi-fx from them (DOD 30, I believe) and it's awful, completely useless. it kills the attack of the note, enveloping it as a fade in, and if you play two notes in less than 4 seconds it just screws it up.

I wish I could turn this unit into a midi controller, because the effects are plain bad. Happly, I've payed only 20 buckaroos for the whole thing.

[wirelessJack]

Hey,

Thanks for your replies!  Might have opened up pandora's box (pun intended?) with the mention of 'fretless'.

Gus, thanks for the *.pdf I've read it, and I've taken your idea's on board (got a 'brain-storming' text file for all the info provided).  It is a tricky thing to do, requiring change in envelope, dynamic harmonic sustain....hopefully I can get hold of a 'dry' recording of a fretless playing single notes as a reference.

zjokka, I have been toying with the idea of buying a cheap fretless just to practice on..

Mark:  Ooo I'll have to check that out, I'm pretty sure I have most of the components for a prototype setup.

I'm not saying it's a dead ringer, but it does a passable job; the same way Tim Escobedo's "Jawari" pedal does a passable job of mimicking an electric sitar when set up just right.  Tack on a bit of chorus and you're in Jaco territory!

Heh, Jaco is pretty much what I'm after....possibly with more chorus so its really audiable on the high notes.  I can't do fretless slides, but I'll probably just be doing single note sustains, so I'll knock up that MXR envelope filter when I get a spare afternoon.  Also, I have a schem of an ibanez bass chorus somehwere, its in 4 parts (frighteningly big) so while I'm at it....

barret77. I have heard a few bass multieffect maufacturers are doing 'defret' effects now, boss, DoD, digitech and korg to name a few.  I've managed to hear some samples off the web, the only one that sounded 'ok' was the korg, even then, one review did mention that its not for anything other than single notes, sustaining.  All these seem to be digital (which is an option) but I'm sure some clever analogue could do it admirably.

Thanks for your opinions, its good to know there are many electronics gurus/musicians about.

WirelessJack

[bwanasonic]

I used to use an EH Micro-Synth (with guitar) for a pseudo-fretless bass sound, setting the envelope to sweep as in Mark H's post about the MXR EF. As for fretless guitar, you might want to check this link. I tried the Godin fretless guitar and LOVED it, but just didn't have the $1100 or so at the time.

Kerry M

[psyline]

I know this is a 10 year old thread, but... FWIW, i've been using the Zoom BFX-708 for years, and it has a JacoP preset that is excellent. I get an awesome tone out of it with my Warwick Corvette and Bartolini's. You can hear it here starting around 20 seconds in to the drum intro and a bass solo using JacoP around min 4:50:  http://thewooks.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/sweetliz.mp3

Here is the unit: https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/guitar-bass-effects/bass/zoom-bfx-708#downloads

I just ordered the Zoom B2 unit to replace my BFX-708 (B2 has no wha pedal) to save space on my board. This one has i believe the same effect, but instead of being called JacoP, its called defret. More on this soon...
https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/guitar-bass-effects/bass/b2-bass-effects-pedal#overview

[Rob Strand]

Sounds pretty good but when solo'd it does have an envelope filter quality.
BTW really liked your track.

Phil Scorgie from Crossfire (1979 to 1983 or so) used to get a Jaco sound with a fretted bass.
I believe he used a flanger of some sort but he gets the sound with left hand slides and a lot of right hand attitude.

Fretted 70's Fender Jazz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGGoH6ZB9SM

Fretted 70's Fender Jazz: (solo starts at 2:20 or so but you can hear his finger style at 3:35)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FdX2jcDINU

Same guy with a Real fretless (Maton JBIV) (solo @ 3:43)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQtFdvjFlvg

There was another track (Malice in Wonderland) where he did a fretted bass solo  bu I can't find it on Youtube.

I actually own a Maton JB4 Fretless and there's some thing you do on a fretless which are hard to emulate with an effect.

[psyline]

Rob, Thanks so much. I finally hooked up the Xoom B2 in my pedal board. The tone of the Defret is similar to the JacoP, but... unfortunately i cannot put the Zoom unit into my board. It is just too noisy. There is no true bypass. For anyone out there looking for a cool, fretless effect tone, i believe the Zoom BFX-708 has it hands down. The JacoP setting, is awesome. And you can get them now for around $5 on eBay. I played mine in concert this weekend, and still sounds amazing. Again, if you're looking for a fretless tone with your fretted bass, These units can make it happen: Zoom BFX-708, Zoom B1, B2, the new for 2016/2017 multistomp boxes have the tone as well, although i havent heard them yet.

Here is an image search with several of the effects boxes:
https://www.google.com/search?q=zoom+bass+multi+effects&espv=2&biw=1017&bih=735&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNg-f9593QAhWLzLwKHcmRAGMQ_AUIBygC

[DDD]

By the by, the famous Bass Brassmaster  may produce some very special sounds, and I guess there's some fretless parodies among them.

[petey twofinger]

my riverhead unicorn headless bass often reminds me of a fretless type sound when i use it .