Mutron Micro V Randomized Range Control

[patrick398]

Ok so for the time being the Mutron III is going on hold, much to my (and i'm sure this forums') relief. I think i'm going to try and build the Mutron Micro V as it looks a little easier. 


I'm going to use the layout for the madbean Kraken though as i want to breadboard it first and can't find a schematic for the micro V.

http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/madbean-kraken.html

http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/kraken-schematic.jpg


What i really want to do though is to have the option for something controlling the range in a pretty random way. A similar effect to, if whilst playing i was to wiggle the range pot and/or sweep it back and forth wildly. I've just read the Geofex article on envelope filters, and a few threads on the Micro V, and whilst it was very helpful i only got my head around about 40% of it.

How would i go about achieving a randomly controlled range? I feel like it could be a really fun thing to have

Thanks

[Mark Hammer]

Do you wanted something like a clocked S&H sound, or were you looking for something that swept around in a somewhat unpredictable way?  If the latter, then probably the easiest way to do so would be to simply use two unsynced LFOs, conceivably (or maybe even preferably) using different waveforms.  So, imagine the result of mixing an LFO providing a triangle output and another providing a ramp output.

[patrick398]

Yeah i'm thinking more like something that sweeps in an unpredictable way. My best point of reference would be the solo at the end of paranoid android by Radiohead where Jonny Greenwood feeds his guitar solo into a mutronics mutator and adjusts the frequency knobs as it's going back out. He achieves this live by adjusting the range knob on his DOD 440 with his foot but with considerably less extreme results

[Mark Hammer]

Do you want ALL envelope-directed aspects removed, are wold you be content with a combination of envelope and some other control-voltage source?

Alternatively, consider a couple of independently LFO-swept bandpass filters.  The effect doesn't HAVE to be based around the Micro V.

[Kipper4]

Hmmmm

[Mark Hammer]

My thoughts exactly, Rich. 

I started thinking about two bandpass filters mixed into a mono output, each having their resonant frequency modulated by its own LFO, and each LFO selectable for triangle or something around 30% duty pulse.  Two such LFOs, set to pulse, and running at different speeds, might produce something akin to S&H, but not quite.

Think of it as a variant on the Blurst.

[patrick398]

Do you want ALL envelope-directed aspects removed, are wold you be content with a combination of envelope and some other control-voltage source?

Alternatively, consider a couple of independently LFO-swept bandpass filters.  The effect doesn't HAVE to be based around the Micro V.

Thank you for the replies
The reason i thought of just bolting something onto the micro v is because it seemed like a relatively easy build and i like the sound of it stock. Would be nice to have a switch to bring in the random craziness. I'm not opposed at all to going in a completely different direction if it will yield better results but it will mean being far more reliant on the expertise of you guys, which, if your up for it, would be amazing but initially i'd hoped to keep my bothering of you down to a minimum haha. The two independent LFO swept filters sounds like it could get me there. If i'm not mistaken the mutator has two frequency controls so the same guitar solo is being processed through two seperate filters and then mixed?

Hmmmm

Is that a hmmm? what an intriguing idea, or a hmmm? what a donut! 

This is exactly the kind of effect i'm after really, from 5.47 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHiGbolFFGw

Thanks again!

[Mark Hammer]

I think that "hmmm" was from me tickling Rich's gb-spot (get building).

After listening to the Radiohead track, that's a pretty complex sound.  First, very high resonance.  Not impossible but it adds to the design complexity.  Second, very wide range.  Again, not impossible, but adds to complexity.  It sounds like a single filter, rather than two, with some VCO-derived tone superimposed over the filtered version of the guitar (hence the apparent two filters).  The Blurst pedal, I linked to earlier, is also a single filter, rather than two, that6 can do the foot-controlled modulation rate for those sudden sweeps of bubbly sound.  I can't tell if the Radiohead track is using a bandpass or a lowpass with high resonance (which will begin to sound like a bandpass when the resonance is up high enough to shift attention to the corner frequency and away from the bass content).

What Rich and I are contemplating would not likely get you that specific Johnny Greenwood sound, though I think it would sound interesting.  The big question is whether the sounds you want would require modulating two parameters rather than just one.

I picked up one of those Source Audio Hot Hand 3 units that allows for manual control of up to two parameters via hand waving.  Some of the things you can plug it into might allow for manual control of modulation rate, while you work filter frequency range with your foot.  Of course, that would require something that responds to two types of control siultaneously, by being able to modulate both sweep rate and sweep range.

The German may be opaque to many here, but this guy does a nice demo of the Hot Hand.

[patrick398]

I think that "hmmm" was from me tickling Rich's gb-spot (get building).

After listening to the Radiohead track, that's a pretty complex sound.  First, very high resonance.  Not impossible but it adds to the design complexity.  Second, very wide range.  Again, not impossible, but adds to complexity.  It sounds like a single filter, rather than two, with some VCO-derived tone superimposed over the filtered version of the guitar (hence the apparent two filters).  The Blurst pedal, I linked to earlier, is also a single filter, rather than two, that6 can do the foot-controlled modulation rate for those sudden sweeps of bubbly sound.  I can't tell if the Radiohead track is using a bandpass or a lowpass with high resonance (which will begin to sound like a bandpass when the resonance is up high enough to shift attention to the corner frequency and away from the bass content).

What Rich and I are contemplating would not likely get you that specific Johnny Greenwood sound, though I think it would sound interesting.  The big question is whether the sounds you want would require modulating two parameters rather than just one.

I suspected it might be difficult to replicate in pedal form since i guess the mutator is a fairly complex beast. I don't necessarily need something as extreme as that, but i do like the range and resonance of the sweeps so if that could be achieved i could probably give up the random element. If i get somewhere close i could then have two running simultaneously with different range, resonance, and possibly sweep direction and mix them at the output?

I have a delay pedal with the delay time knob hooked up to an ldr which works pretty well in getting crazy random sounds...wondering if a similar thing could be implemented here with the range pot

The hot hand is a cool idea but i already have to do enough with my feet on stage, i think if i introduced a hand i might forget to breath 

[Kipper4]

I have an idea for this but it involves a state variable filter. More on this later.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[ElectricDruid]

My VCLFO 10 design has a "Random slopes" waveform which is pretty much what you describe. It produces random ramps from one level to another at whatever the LFO rate is. Plus there's 15 other waveforms too...



There are other ways to get this effect, of course, but digital is simple...

http://electricdruid.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/VCLFO10Datasheet.pdf

HTH,
Tom

[patrick398]

My VCLFO 10 design has a "Random slopes" waveform which is pretty much what you describe. It produces random ramps from one level to another at whatever the LFO rate is. Plus there's 15 other waveforms too...

There are other ways to get this effect, of course, but digital is simple...

http://electricdruid.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/VCLFO10Datasheet.pdf

HTH,
Tom

Thanks for the suggestion Tom, sounds very interesting! There's a lot of information in that pdf that goes totally over my head, how exactly would this be implemented? Is it something that could be bolted onto an existing envelope filter design or something that would have to designed around this chip?
Still waiting with baited breath for Kipper idea too!
So grateful that this place exists and that you guys are so damn helpful!

[Kipper4]

This drawing is a state variable filter from sabratone. Credit due.

http://www.sabrotone.com/?attachment_id=3192

It's similar to the mutronIII in lots of ways.

Now if you change R10 R12 for a dual gang pot wired as a variable resistor. It can have a dramatic effect on the corner freqauncy of the filters.

If I was to guess what was going on with his live set this would be something I'd suggest.

I cant remember what values I used or trailed but it might be worth a breadboarding.

[patrick398]

This drawing is a state variable filter from sabratone. Credit due.

http://www.sabrotone.com/?attachment_id=3192

It's similar to the mutronIII in lots of ways.

Now if you change R10 R12 for a dual gang pot wired as a variable resistor. It can have a dramatic effect on the corner freqauncy of the filters.

I like the look of this a lot, i think it could be a lot of fun to play around with and also would be good to start getting my head round these kinds of circuits for the future. Says it's based on the lovetone meatball as well as the mutator and i love the sound of both of them. I'm thinking it could still be cool to have the option of an LDR on a switch in place of the sensitivity pot for the randomness. Man i'm so excited about all these ideas you guys have posted. Thanks so much!

[Mark Hammer]

One of the things that distinguishes this place from many others is that we are, and have always been, all about getting something done, rather than about what we own or have opinions about.  Not that we don't differ in opinions about HOW to get something done, but the goal is always getting something done.  That tends to bring out the cooperation in folks.

And I have to say, it is a whole lot easier and cheaper to watch someone else accomplish something than to have to devote the time and money and sweat to doing it yourself!!  Advice and ideas are quick and cheap to dispense.