Tonepad ce2 too much bright

[Atodovax]

Hello everyone. I built a corral chorus from tonepad and compared it  to a Made un Japan ce2 and they are far away... The sound is similar butcher the original sounds much Warner and not so metallic ir sharper as they clone. Is there a way todo accomplish the original sound ir ay least reduce the high end metallic sound and bring up the mids on the clone? The effects is also a little bit more pronounced in the original ce2. I also noticed that the original didnt use opamps chips. It's built with transistors . Might be that the reason of the difference un sound? Shouldn't i try with different op amps? So far i hace tried tl0222 and tl072 and the sound has no change..... The pedal sounds great. But still ir doesnt reach that warm ands characteristic sound of the vintage ce2

[thermionix]

The Boss used opamps and transistors.  The TL022 is the LFO, shouldn't effect the tone of the pedal.



How does the Tonepad compare to this schematic?  I built the Madbean Pork Barrel, and it is definitely brighter than a CE-1, but I have not had a chance to compare it to an original CE-2.

[Mark Hammer]

When you consider just how many caps are used for the pre-emphasis/de-emphasis, as well as lowpass filtering, and consider the tolerances all those caps have, a unit that ends up sounding a little brighter than another using the same nominal part values is not out of the question.  Just play with the cap values and you'll get there.

[Atodovax]

When you consider just how many caps are used for the pre-emphasis/de-emphasis, as well as lowpass filtering, and consider the tolerances all those caps have, a unit that ends up sounding a little brighter than another using the same nominal part values is not out of the question.  Just play with the cap values and you'll get there.

Thanks Mark. the thing is that for some reason almost everyone seems to build the clone and notice that is more trebly and has led of that mid magic from the original unit. i used all metal film 1% resistors and metal film box type ECPOS capacitors so it should be pretty accurate. I meassured all the components before soldering them in. Do you have any idea to what cap or resistor should i attack first?
The pedal sounds pretty well , but again... Lacks that mid boost magic that the original MIJ ce2 has and has  amore trebly and metallic sound. I noticed that the original unit has different trasistors. Do you think that sweeping the transistors might affect the sound at all? Sorry for so many questions but im really stuck on this one. Another thing is that the chorus effect seems to be more pronaunced on the original unit. not much , just a little bit

[Mark Hammer]

I'm always a little leery of claims about this issue or that, of a particular pedal.  Much of the time they are based on someone's comparison of a single pedal made in such and such a year/location, against a single pedal made in another, and not a comparison of a consistent pattern across many pedals from a given issue, against many from another.  That doesn't mean there can't be differences, but when there is no documented design change (such as in the case of script vs block logo Phase 90s, or early vs later DM-2s), you have to wonder if there is some misattribution of mere component-tolerances to time/place of manufacture.

Although the transistor numbers may have changed between issues of the CE-2, there is nothing about the way the transistors are used in that circuit that demands anything special about them.  The most I would expect to hear is maybe differences in noise.  But there are so many other sources of noise in the design and basic functioning of a BBD-based chorus, that I doubt whatever differences stem from transistor choice could be heard above other sources.

Your resistors may be 1% (and a tip of the hat for doing so), but the caps are not going to be anywhere that tightly spec'd.

In particular, C3 and C15 provide the location of the pre-emphasis and de-emphasis corner frequency, used as a simple form of noise control.  C3 sets the treble-boost point, and C15 the complementary treble cut point, to restore tone back to normal.  If C15's value is a bit lower than C3's, then some upper mids will be emphasized that are not de-emphasized on the output, yielding a bit of a mid-bump.

As for the intensity, the balance of the wet and dry signal paths is set by R21 and R22.  If R21 has a lower value than R22, then - all other things being equal -  dry signal will predominate.    If R22 has a lower value than R21, then the reverse happens.  I say "all other things being equal" because there can be some signal loss in the BBD and the delay path in general, and you can't really know how much in advance.  Matching R21 and R22 is a plausible strategy, but if the delay path experiences some signal loss, resistor-value matching doesn't fix that.

Myself, I like to replace R22 with a 39k or 43k fixed resistor, and a 50k pot. This permits one to dial back the wet signal (larger total resistance values) for subtler sounds, as well as match the dry and wet levels perfectly, should they not be matched.

[Atodovax]

I'm always a little leery of claims about this issue or that, of a particular pedal.  Much of the time they are based on someone's comparison of a single pedal made in such and such a year/location, against a single pedal made in another, and not a comparison of a consistent pattern across many pedals from a given issue, against many from another.  That doesn't mean there can't be differences, but when there is no documented design change (such as in the case of script vs block logo Phase 90s, or early vs later DM-2s), you have to wonder if there is some misattribution of mere component-tolerances to time/place of manufacture.

Although the transistor numbers may have changed between issues of the CE-2, there is nothing about the way the transistors are used in that circuit that demands anything special about them.  The most I would expect to hear is maybe differences in noise.  But there are so many other sources of noise in the design and basic functioning of a BBD-based chorus, that I doubt whatever differences stem from transistor choice could be heard above other sources.

Your resistors may be 1% (and a tip of the hat for doing so), but the caps are not going to be anywhere that tightly spec'd.

In particular, C3 and C15 provide the location of the pre-emphasis and de-emphasis corner frequency, used as a simple form of noise control.  C3 sets the treble-boost point, and C15 the complementary treble cut point, to restore tone back to normal.  If C15's value is a bit lower than C3's, then some upper mids will be emphasized that are not de-emphasized on the output, yielding a bit of a mid-bump.

As for the intensity, the balance of the wet and dry signal paths is set by R21 and R22.  If R21 has a lower value than R22, then - all other things being equal -  dry signal will predominate.    If R22 has a lower value than R21, then the reverse happens.  I say "all other things being equal" because there can be some signal loss in the BBD and the delay path in general, and you can't really know how much in advance.  Matching R21 and R22 is a plausible strategy, but if the delay path experiences some signal loss, resistor-value matching doesn't fix that.

Myself, I like to replace R22 with a 39k or 43k fixed resistor, and a 50k pot. This permits one to dial back the wet signal (larger total resistance values) for subtler sounds, as well as match the dry and wet levels perfectly, should they not be matched.

Thank you very very VERY much!. As isual, your words enlighten my path again!. I will try modifying all those components today and look for changes. I forgot to mention that the Tonepad schematic has a 10k trimpot between leg 5 of the 4558 and r27 and r28. Im not sure for what porpouse is that. But if you turn it the effect will desappear. The "sweet spot" of the effect is vey wide in the trimpot, do you think that has to be precisely trimmed with osciloscope or is it more of a ON/OFF thing? Sorry for my english!

[Mark Hammer]

Your English is fine and quite understandable.

The trimmer is used to set the bias voltage that acts as both Vref AND the bias for the delay chip.  In many chorus pedals, Vref is provided independently, and a trimmer used to adjust bias voltage specifically for the BBD.  Here, one trimmer is used for multiple tasks.  I gather it holds some benefits or else Boss would not have elected to use it.

The best case scenario is to set it using a signal generator and a scope, and aim for the "purest" waveform in the signal.  But since most of us do not have such a setup, it is possible to adjust by ear.

I will make the following suggestions, though.  First, when adjusting, listen to it through headphones if possible, so that you hear ONLY the circuit.  Second, when setting the trimmer, lift one end of the 47k resistor that mixes in the dry signal so that all you hear is wet.  You want to be able to hear the maximum amount of distortion produced so that you can easily hear when you adjusted it to go away.

[thermionix]

I might irritate a few folks around here as this runs contrary to some popular wisdom, but metal film resistors are often associated with bighter, harsher tones compared to carbon types.  I also used metal film resistors in my Pork barrel build, and I can say that it turned out more "bright and metallic" than I expected, but like I said before I don't have an original to compare it too.  Like you, I measured each component in this build before installing, trying to head off any potential malfunctions, and I had none.  I would expect that Boss used carbon film resistors in the original CE-2.  Just throwing that out there, make what you will of it.

(Shall we also consider...outside foil?)

[Atodovax]

I might irritate a few folks around here as this runs contrary to some popular wisdom, but metal film resistors are often associated with bighter, harsher tones compared to carbon types.  I also used metal film resistors in my Pork barrel build, and I can say that it turned out more "bright and metallic" than I expected, but like I said before I don't have an original to compare it too.  Like you, I measured each component in this build before installing, trying to head off any potential malfunctions, and I had none.  I would expect that Boss used carbon film resistors in the original CE-2.  Just throwing that out there, make what you will of it.

(Shall we also consider...outside foil?)

What do you mean by outside foil? Can i send you a video of my comparison with mine and the japanese ce2? Is the metal film resistor thing real about thebmetallic sound?

[thermionix]

Outside foil is a capacitor thing, in many but not all types.  It was brought up a few weeks ago in another thread, I think in the Members Only section.  I've usually taken it into account when building amps, but only when using caps that were marked.  The only ways I knew to test unmarked caps for outside foil were with an O-scope (don't have one) or wrapping foil around the cap and checking for capacitance to either lead (sounds unreliable, never tried it).  So somebody posted a video in that thread of how to check with a fuzz pedal and amp.  I tried that and it worked great for about 95% of the caps I sorted through.  All of my "pedal" caps are now marked, but I haven't built any pedals since doing so.

It's mostly a noise rejection thing, but may have some effect on sound quality too in some instances.  IMO it does in tube amps.  I have no data or measuements to back that up, just my experience.  I work on a bunch of old Fender amps.  Fender used to be very deliberate with cap orientation, but at some point in the sloppy 70s CBS period started installing them randomly.  Many people will bring me silverface Fender amps wanting me to "blackface" the circuit for them.  That's usually a few minor changes to the bias and phase inverter circuits, but if I really like the customer I will also go through and "correct" the orientation of the coupling caps.

As for metal film resistors, I wouldn't say that they have a metallic sound, just that in at least some circuits can result in a somewhat brighter tone.  Again just going on my experience with tube amps.  If you take a reissue Fender amp that's built with metal film resistors, and swap them all to carbon composition types while making no other changes, it will mellow out the high end of the amp to some extent.  I know this because I've done it.  It wil also add a little bit of noise (hiss) so many wouldn't think it's a good thing to do.  I've read some stuff online years ago that the metal/carbon resistor thing only makes a difference (other than noise) in high voltage circuits.  I have no idea if that's true, I've never done an A/B resistor type comparison in a pedal.

Put more generally, without regard to what's "better" or "worse" or whether noise level is a higher priority than accuracy, I think if your goal is to truely clone the sound of a specific piece of gear, you get closest using the same materials in most cases.  Of course that only applies to components that are actually in the signal path or directly shaping the tone or effect.  For something that's doing "machine work" like an LFO in a chorus pedal, there will be no tonal difference between this or that type of resistor or cap, just use the cheapest reliable option.

Also I'm not saying that you will improve the sound of your CE-2 clone one bit if you switch the signal path resistors to carbon film.  I have no idea as I've never tried it.  Just throwing it out there as a possibility, maybe one of several factors contibuting to your (and my) "brighter than expected" results.  Maybe not.  I have no plans to swap my resistors out, I'll tell you that for sure.

Lastly, I would love for you to send me your comparison video.  I just PM'd you my email address.  I'm interested to see how mine sounds in comparison to both yours and the original Boss.  Thanks!

[Atodovax]

Outside foil is a capacitor thing, in many but not all types.  It was brought up a few weeks ago in another thread, I think in the Members Only section.  I've usually taken it into account when building amps, but only when using caps that were marked.  The only ways I knew to test unmarked caps for outside foil were with an O-scope (don't have one) or wrapping foil around the cap and checking for capacitance to either lead (sounds unreliable, never tried it).  So somebody posted a video in that thread of how to check with a fuzz pedal and amp.  I tried that and it worked great for about 95% of the caps I sorted through.  All of my "pedal" caps are now marked, but I haven't built any pedals since doing so.

It's mostly a noise rejection thing, but may have some effect on sound quality too in some instances.  IMO it does in tube amps.  I have no data or measuements to back that up, just my experience.  I work on a bunch of old Fender amps.  Fender used to be very deliberate with cap orientation, but at some point in the sloppy 70s CBS period started installing them randomly.  Many people will bring me silverface Fender amps wanting me to "blackface" the circuit for them.  That's usually a few minor changes to the bias and phase inverter circuits, but if I really like the customer I will also go through and "correct" the orientation of the coupling caps.

As for metal film resistors, I wouldn't say that they have a metallic sound, just that in at least some circuits can result in a somewhat brighter tone.  Again just going on my experience with tube amps.  If you take a reissue Fender amp that's built with metal film resistors, and swap them all to carbon composition types while making no other changes, it will mellow out the high end of the amp to some extent.  I know this because I've done it.  It wil also add a little bit of noise (hiss) so many wouldn't think it's a good thing to do.  I've read some stuff online years ago that the metal/carbon resistor thing only makes a difference (other than noise) in high voltage circuits.  I have no idea if that's true, I've never done an A/B resistor type comparison in a pedal.

Put more generally, without regard to what's "better" or "worse" or whether noise level is a higher priority than accuracy, I think if your goal is to truely clone the sound of a specific piece of gear, you get closest using the same materials in most cases.  Of course that only applies to components that are actually in the signal path or directly shaping the tone or effect.  For something that's doing "machine work" like an LFO in a chorus pedal, there will be no tonal difference between this or that type of resistor or cap, just use the cheapest reliable option.

Also I'm not saying that you will improve the sound of your CE-2 clone one bit if you switch the signal path resistors to carbon film.  I have no idea as I've never tried it.  Just throwing it out there as a possibility, maybe one of several factors contibuting to your (and my) "brighter than expected" results.  Maybe not.  I have no plans to swap my resistors out, I'll tell you that for sure.

Lastly, I would love for you to send me your comparison video.  I just PM'd you my email address.  I'm interested to see how mine sounds in comparison to both yours and the original Boss.  Thanks!

I just read this after sending you an email!. How do you feel my pedal with yours? Are they close? I have the video in HD if you are interested.. It weights a lot , thats why i reduced the resolution to a 20mb file... Its pretty crappy now in sound and video quality, if you want i can send you the original, but you can surely spot the difference in the one that i sent you. Thanks for the great advice. I will try what Mark suggested and if that doesnt work i will try to do my own layout based on the ce2... I can see on the pedal that it has different components. Specially transistors, the Boss pedal has more than mine

[thermionix]

transistors, the Boss pedal has more than mine

Are you counting the JFETs(?) used in the buffered bypass in the Boss?  I think your homemade pedal is true bypass and wouldn't have those components.  It should make no difference to the sound when the effect is on.

You can try sending me the HD video, but I don't know if I'll hear it any better through my little computer speakers.  In real life, I think my CE-2 build is a little brighter than either in the video you sent, but if I had yours and mine in front of me they might sound the same.

--------------------

Edit:  Jeez I'm an idiot, the same idiot that posted the Boss schematic above.  I'm talking about Q6-Q9, those won't be in a true bypass clone.  One is a JFET, the other 3 are regular bipolar transistors.

[Atodovax]

transistors, the Boss pedal has more than mine

Are you counting the JFETs(?) used in the buffered bypass in the Boss?  I think your homemade pedal is true bypass and wouldn't have those components.  It should make no difference to the sound when the effect is on.

You can try sending me the HD video, but I don't know if I'll hear it any better through my little computer speakers.  In real life, I think my CE-2 build is a little brighter than either in the video you sent, but if I had yours and mine in front of me they might sound the same.

--------------------

Edit:  Jeez I'm an idiot, the same idiot that posted the Boss schematic above.  I'm talking about Q6-Q9, those won't be in a true bypass clone.  One is a JFET, the other 3 are regular bipolar transistors.

I just noticed that i had a lm358 in the lfo!!! Replaced it with  tl062 and the sound improved a lot, i now hear it with less treble, is that possible?? Or am i just allusitating?

[pinkjimiphoton]

jfet opamps sound too brite in a lot of bbd based devices. try lower gain things, like lm301 or 308, 1458, stuff like that. some bbd chips are REAL trebley too. you can always add a cap to ground before the output to bleed off some treble too.
the biasing of the bbd will have some effect too.... lotta variables

[oetzi1977]

Hi,
I have the opposite problem: my Tonepad CE-2 is too "muddy" compared to an original one. It lacks the typical "airy" sound of the original... which component should I Try to swap in order to obtain a brighter sound?

Thank You so much!

[pinkjimiphoton]

did you make any component subs?
any caps off spec? i mess that up all the time still sometimes.. a 100n for a 10n or something can make it so the circuit works but is unstable in some way.
again, playing with the bias can help sometimes, but it sounds to me like something else is wrong.
we'll need voltages etc etc, probably best to start a separate support thread.

[oetzi1977]

Thank you so much for the answer!
No, I've verified many times component values and they're all right.

Maybe the bias... I should try to play with it and see if I can hear some difference 

[DFX-PCBS]

I like madbeans pork barrel project. It can be built with MN3007 or MN3207