Talk Box Small Amplifier Suggestion

[pinkjimiphoton]

didn't read the thread, as i've seen so much baloney posted and so many of the same questions posited...

a tweeter is no good for a talkbox. it will sound like shit, and roll off most of the guitar tone. you need a FULL RANGE DRIVER for pa horns. go for older ones... university, community, jbl, etc... you need it to handle about 40 watts, and want it to be 8-16 ohms. don't worry too much about the impedance. the key is a tweeter cuts off around 1khz. an actual driver will handle 40hz to about 15hz with ease. don't waste your time with tweeters.

you want about a min of 15 watts to drive it. 40-50 is about perfect. there's no such thing as "making your teeth rattle" unless you have dentures. it's not painful, it will not make you deafer or any of the other bullshit people say.
in fact, due to the losses involved with the tube, expect 40 watts to be about the same as you singing loud. this is important, as you want the talkbox signal at LEAST as loud as your voice. better, a little louder, even. you can always turn your guitar down, but can't always turn it UP.

them chinese chipamps are perfect for driving these. look for the one on ebay with 90 watts and treble bass and volume controls. it will fit in a 1590b easily. if you use a power supply brick, run it on an 18v tap. that will get you around 24 watts of actual output, which is on the edge of being enough. an old laptop power supply of 24-36v is even better, but can lead to ground loop noise.

simply mount the chipamp board in the 1590b, and add three jacks... one input, and two outputs. use a normal 3pdt. wire the switch so its either true bypass, or goes to the input of the chipamp. the output of the chipamp gets it's own 1/4" jack. plug your driver in here, and now you can a/b between talkbox or normal guitar easily. make sure ya put an led in there so ya can tell which circuit is live at the time, which, trust me, will save ya some head scratching at the gig when suddenly your guitar doesn't work.

you can run them safely with no load, btw, so you can mount the talkbox driver a/b right on your pedalboard. with no driver connected it makes a handy kill switch for the signal as well. put it at the end of your effect chain.

to interface the driver, get a replacement 3 prong plug at a hardware store, the type that use a black rubber boot that the wire goes thru, that screws to the terminal part. it's just the right size to fit on the horn throat. you can screw it on, even put a hose clamp on if ya think ya need it. this will couple the output of the driver to the tubing. ream out the hole the wire goes thru just enough to fit your tubing thru.

i use 1/2"-5/8" clear plastic tubing on mine, but if you can find rubber tubing of the same size, it's easier on the mouth. i tend to use a slightly smaller tube, that will fit inside the bigger tube, for the final termination. ya don't gag on it as much, and it's disposable that way, as talkboxes tend to get really @#$%ing nasty.

i guarantee if you follow my instructions, you will have a safe and working talkbox that can handle any guitar or bass or keys you throw at it, at an ample volume for most stage work, and it can be built for well under 100$ even including the driver <usually 40-60 bux for a vintage full range>

hope that helps. now i'll read the thread.

btw, other than having to replace the driver i damaged dropping it., i've run the same talkbox since 1982. i used to use an a/b to switch the output between my princeton's onboard speaker and the box, but this way works easier and i don't need 50 feet of speaker cable <20 to/from the amp from the a/b, and another 10 to the driver>.

you may find it sounds/works better with a fuzzbox on, and some kinda jfet based boost.

peace!

[pinkjimiphoton]

I feel 40W is way overkill.

Talk boxes don't necessarily have to use high-powered amps and drivers.  I have a Danelectro Free Speech pedal, like this one, and it uses  a 386 amp chip and a 3" speaker, running off a 9V battery.

I tried to figure this out on my own using Google searches, but many people claim you NEED 30-50W and others are telling horror stories of mouth pain from homemade talk boxes that were too powerful.  Thanks for both of your insights, I'm going to go with your lower power suggestions.

a bunch of bullshit. you can't hurt your mouth or teeth. you need 30-50 watts mainly to ensure enough accoustic volume at the mouth end of the tube. so far, every claim i've seen like this is from peeps who really never used or built one. that's it. for real. i've run a 200 watt marshall major into my 40 watt 16r driver, and it has so much accoustic loss, it's not all that much louder than me shouting. seriously.

and remember, them class d chipamps, you're talking peak power more than rms.

I'd like to avoid using a practice amp, simply for aesthetic purposes (I know that's a little silly).  I have 2 practice amps that I wouldn't mind sacrificing to this project, but I would rather build a talk box that looks closer to a guitar pedal if at all possible.  The practice amps I have are 15W and 10W so, I'm guessing an audio amplifier in this range would work to drive the driver I linked to in the original post.

This looks like it will work to me.  Can someone please look at this and verify that it will work with the driver I linked in the original post?  Thank you!

https://www.amazon.com/Ximimark-TDA7297-Amplifier-Dual-Channel-Component/dp/B07MYY3LX3/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=15w+amplifier&qid=1566498473&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&s=gateway&sr=8-5

Welcome to the forum, too.

Thank you, I've been lurking for years and finally had something to post about.

any of them chinese drivers will work fine, and all will run at 9volts, too. but the thing is, they're not as efficient as they pretend to be. the higher the voltage you run them at, the more accoustic output at the end of the tube... that's the big one that matters.

i have built them from 18 to 90 "watts" and they all work... but the higher powered amp is necessary to really drive it loud enough to match your vocal volume.

[pinkjimiphoton]

...but why do you need TWO channels? 

It's all I could find 

Is it ok to have one channel unused, and 'floating'??   I'd want to know that first.

Good question, does anyone else here know?

I'd recommend getting the driver first, trying it w/ the practice amp to see what it sounds like - will it drive enough to get sound to the mic ok, etc.  If so, find out what wattage that amp is.     Bet you'd only have a little 10W amp turned up 50% to drive it.    I use a poly tube connected to driver w/brass plumbing nipple (thread one side, nip other)...tube is about 1/2" or 5/8" I think.     I got a lot of it, and made it long - occasionally I can cut off some when it gets gross.   A nipplexnipple connector is good near the box to change out the whole tube - and after use, you can take of the mouth end and sterilize it!!

That's a good idea, I'll probably do that before buying the amplifier.  Thanks!

go on ebay, not amazon. there's a plethora of mono amps on ebay, most are under 20 bux for up to 400 watts.

you can just short the input on the unused side to ground, if worried about oscillation or whatever. but you don't need to worry about it. the advantage of the stereo one tho is that if you fry one side <easy to do if ya short the amp while plugging in the driver, so always make sure power is OFF before connecting> you can use the other side of the chipamp... IF it doesn't have the usual protection circuitry built into these class d chips that makes them endlessly reboot.

seriously. hit ebay. parts express MAY have new, current drivers that will work. but forget using tweeters. you need the full range of the guitar.

[Nasse]

Dayton Audio D1075T
Monacor ku-516

I believe something like those drivers might work,

[pinkjimiphoton]

ummmm.... did i single you out? you have any idea how many people spread that bullshit about rattling teeth and dental bills and other such shit? for like, decades?

i did not single you out.  i guess ya feel i did cuz i was replying to the guy who was quoting you. believe me, if i wanted to single you out, bud, i would do so specifically. sorry if it came off differently, but not how it was meant.

the truth is this. i know what i'm talking about. you need a full range driver. you need ample power. at least if you intend to use it live.

the guy was asking about chipamps, and using a tweeter. he'd be wasting his money with a tweeter. even the pignose looking thing mark posted with the "adapter" to use as a talkbox is using a full - range driver. or full enough.

i'm suggesting to the op how to save money and get an actually useable system. i also stated i wasn't really reading thru the thread. i assumed, as usual, people were giving sketchy information. sarcasm aside, some folks don't "get" sarcasm or humor and take things kinda literally.

i'm talking the price of a decent driver and a 10$ chipamp. spend 1500? not even close.

dust filled hobo was quoting you. i was responding to HIS statements:
"I tried to figure this out on my own using Google searches, but many people claim you NEED 30-50W and others are telling horror stories of mouth pain from homemade talk boxes that were too powerful.  Thanks for both of your insights, I'm going to go with your lower power suggestions."

hence me calling "BULLSHIT". cuz it is. did i also besmirch mark for praising a free speech in the same reply?

perhaps i should have edited the "quote" more. didn't think it was really necessary. guess i was wrong.

maybe you're taking it wrong, and if so, i apologize either way. i said 15 watts is enough in the past, but it depends on the application. with a chip amp, you need to significantly increase the stated power to GET that 15-20 watts... so yeah, 50-100 watt amp in this case will get you in the ballpark with fairly standard power supplies.

yes, you can use a tweeter as some folks try to do. but it's never gonna have the frequency response to work out live. you're rolling off the bottom two octaves or so of the guitar tone by doing so.

hence full range driver. the old community or atlas or university drivers i reccomend are cheap, will last forever, and are seriously bulletproof. you can clip the hell out of them and they keep kicking ass. they will handle bass as well as guitar. try it with a tweeter, and that just ain't gonna work.  in a bedroom? maybe. on stage? not a chance.

anyways...
nice box ya built. what are the specs for the driver?

peace back at ya

"a bunch of bullshit. you can't hurt your mouth or teeth. you need 30-50 watts mainly to ensure enough accoustic volume at the mouth end of the tube. so far, every claim i've seen like this is from peeps who really never used or built one. that's it. for real. i've run a 200 watt marshall major into my 40 watt 16r driver, and it has so much accoustic loss, it's not all that much louder than me shouting. seriously."

Ever heard of a sarcastic statement?  No, it won't actually cause dental damage...you could run 100W, and it wouldn't ACTUALLY hurt you.  So hey, get yer Marshall stack to drive it, mint.  Tell OP to spend $1,500 to get set up.  My comment was that yes, you CAN OVERKILL the thing. I was trying to help the OP find a reasonable way to drive his box, without overdoing or spending too much. 

Maybe I'm hearing you wrong and you're not really trying to be @ss?   You're not the only one who plays, builds, jams their build or experiments with tone, Jimi.  There are other ppl's perspectives on how to do things.   I wouldn't be pissed if you hadn't copied my reply and singled me out, BTW.

Yeah, really never used or built one.  I just talk out my @ss.  Didn't use this one for 5 years in a live band with a 15 watt amp....it was all lies, LOL.

"Peace"

[stallik]

Genuinely not trying to add fuel to the fire but regarding amp power and tube volume for MY setup, I appear to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

I'm using a  Monacor KU516 fitted with an adaptor made out of plastic waste pipe. The tube may be a little narrow, not sure, and is about 6ft long. My switch box sends the guitar signal out to an amp but also has a mic in so that I can either run the mic to a PA or back into the box, the preamp and then back to the guitar amp

I've tried many amps for the monacor from noisy crickets to practice amps and easily hit the wall with each. I can't get the tube volume high enough without unpleasant distortion. I'm very close or equal to talking volume (I don't sing) but I want more to improve the signal to nose ratio - the heavy nose breathing which hits the mic as I use the tube.

I find it interesting that, beyond a certain level, the monacor only produces distortion rather than volume. For my setup, 1watt, 50watt - no difference

[GibsonGM]

No really big deal, Jimi...yes, it was the quote.  I'm over it, LOL - took my reply out so this can stay on topic.  Technically I won't argue w/90% of what you wrote.  Just trying to help the guy.  No clue on the specs of that driver, it came from a school PA, like the horn they always showed on "MASH", around 1970...an older dude gave it to me a long time ago.  Don't think it even had writing on it, but this was 12 yrs ago.   

Yeah, I have no doubt there are many places online that are 'all horns and no cattle'...honestly, I think that it might just take experimentation to find out what works, and that's all I was telling the OP.  If a POS practice amp doesn't do it for ya, then get something bigger.    I was thinking on the lines that Kevin just brought up...pumping more and more volume into a small tube - at what point does it just turn to junk?

[pinkjimiphoton]

all good mike, again, my apologies.

that said... headroom. you need enough clean headroom to get the volume necessary.

the old pa horns from schools are perfect. always a full range driver, and usually with a metal diaphragm. they can take some serious abuse. if it will cover a vocal range or the national anthem, it should be good.

the problem also comes down to frequency response and input sensitivity.  if it rolls off most of the guitar's frequencies like the tweeters often do, all you'll get is more distortion, not volume. it's like using an eq to wipe out everything below 1k. without the bass and lower mids, all the accoustic volume goes away. my first attempts back in the late 79's were indeed with tweeters. you can get some quacking noises for sure, but not the same as a full range horn.

also, be careful, as with certain diaphragms, if you block the end of the hose with your tongue or side of your cheek,  it can pop the driver.

an efficient horn driver you can get by with about 15 a or a/b watts. an inefficient one will need more power.

them class d chinese amps don't have anywhere near the power they claim... they'll get loud for sure, but you gotta run them on a pretty hefty supply. petey twofingers who turned me on to using them in the first place uses batteries from old laptops to power them, which makes sense... higher voltage, and a higher current will allow more output.

but i generally find whatever they're rated at, figure that's about 3x the RMS value  you'd see in a more "normal" class of amplification... so a 90 watt chip amp in class d will put out about the same volume as a 30 watt amp in class a or a/b 1 or 2.

kinda like how class a amps will "sound louder" to some than class a/b., when really, power is power, right? but they don't always speak the same way.

this is the amp i am currently using. it IS stereo, but only using one side of it. will fit in a 1590b with side mounted pots easily, and gets the talkbox JUST BARELY loud enough at 9 volts, i gotta switch it to an 18v tap on my power supply next time i revamp bernice <my pedal board, so damn big it gets a name and its own zip code>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-24V-TPA3116D2-80W-2-Digital-Audio-Power-Amplifier-Board-Class-D-Amp/322647986140?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

this was literally the first driver i used, that lasted 40 years before i broke on of the connections by dropping it
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-Horn-Driver-16-ohms-25-watts-Vintage/253573480956?hash=item3b0a2841fc:g:ltIAAOSwafta2fGj

here's a similar one
https://www.ebay.com/itm/University-Horn-Driver/133152651616?hash=item1f00843960:g:RH8AAOSwqWZdZI06

note: you don't need a capacitor or cross over with a full range horn, either.

this is about perfect for a modern speaker, click the links and look at the specs. goes down to 200hz, which should be enough for a guitar in most circumstances

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-1-375-Threaded-Compression-Horn-Driver-200w-16ohm-Midrange-Speaker-18tpi/150835029909?hash=item231e77e795:g:OioAAOSwM91agLw8

anyways... going dark now. ya'll have fun.
peace



also, while on the subject, remember, to get more volume out of it, not more power from the amp driving it is always necessary... instead, make the SIGNAL hitting the talk box amp louder should work better... less noise, and better response.

[stallik]

I've previously mentioned that my Monacor compression driver distorts easily so bigger amps achieved little or nothing. I was wrong. Turns out that these drivers need to have the coil aligned in the center of the gap between magnets. If the coil touches the magnet, it buzzes which, to my ears sounded like distortion.
I bought the driver new so there's no guarantee that alignment is always set correctly at the factory.

Realigning was worth about 3x the wattage before distortion

You probably all knew this anyway...