Flintlock Flanger not Sweeping

[duck_arse]

Congrats to the Ashes btw.

well, we have to wait till stuart broad ["a buffoon" - Roy Slaven] confirms whether or not this ashes series counts or not, but, we'll take it. test matches eh.

congrats [?] on page seven.

what's common? VR. when does it go bad? when the 4046 goes in. is this the problem thump, or an audio wobble?

I was thinking a load on the VR supply was causing the LT to go silly, so if you take 3 off 1k 1/4 watt and parallel them, and then connect between VR or +15V - and ground - with just IC7 and IC11 on board for this - you can stress test the supply. if the 15V goes wiggle, you have a bad LT, probably.

as for the 4047 workings - another mystery black box to me, as yet.

can we have a new photo or two of your board built, please? check the value and markings on the trimpot bodies, they will most likely have a pinout diagram on the body. and in yer old pic, there is a blob of red something at the base of C-RANGE - where C26 should be. what is that? also, what is your 4049 markings?


I've had a gutfull of looking at that circuit diagram!

[matopotato]

Congrats to the Ashes btw.

well, we have to wait till stuart broad ["a buffoon" - Roy Slaven] confirms whether or not this ashes series counts or not, but, we'll take it. test matches eh.

Would have like them to play it out over rain, but they say it's part of the game.

congrats [?] on page seven.

If you mean this thread has grown quite long, then thanks [?] although I really wish it wouldn't have run on that far, but a fault and fix would have been found earlier.

what's common? VR. when does it go bad? when the 4046 goes in. is this the problem thump, or an audio wobble?

You mean 4047 I assume.
I can't really distinguish the wobble from the flange-thump. They are the same frequency, but I probably write wobble when there is no audio (due to ICs out etc), so I think they are the same thing.

I was thinking a load on the VR supply was causing the LT to go silly, so if you take 3 off 1k 1/4 watt and parallel them, and then connect between VR or +15V - and ground - with just IC7 and IC11 on board for this - you can stress test the supply. if the 15V goes wiggle, you have a bad LT, probably.

Flat line before and after the 330R 3/4W load applied between R6 and C4 junction (=VR). Then I measured the "15V" marked pad, and flat and nice.
I also checked the pin2 and 7 on the LT, and without the load the square wave is quite square, with the load it has a smoother sloped left side of the top/bottom of the wave. Which is how it looks when all ICs etc are on.
The sawtooth on 7 did not alter much that I could tell.

as for the 4047 workings - another mystery black box to me, as yet.

can we have a new photo or two of your board built, please? check the value and markings on the trimpot bodies, they will most likely have a pinout diagram on the body.

I checked them when putting them in the first time around, but can check again.

and in yer old pic, there is a blob of red something at the base of C-RANGE - where C26 should be. what is that?

Will do. But I think the red something is the C26 itself. 27pF cap connecting pin 1 and 3 of 4047. I tried to read up on datasheets if 27pF could be 22pF or similar to swap it. But perhaps it is futile and my reading of 180pF when in circuit is just my DMM not being better at caps. It is not a fancy one, albeit a nice workhorse.

also, what is your 4049 markings?

Not sure what you mean by markings here.
Voltage on the pins?

Or scope checks?
Pin1 flat and wobbly
pin8 flat and straight
pin13 (?) and 16 hard to day, like two curves, slight waveform but not totally clean, very low amplitude
the rest are square waves that wobble.
Or what is written on the IC itself (I doubt that though)

I've had a gutfull of looking at that circuit diagram!

This first picture to the left of the C-RANGE is the C26, 27pF for 4047 pin 1 and 3
(The C37 mentioned earlier was a 22pF and is omitted as per instructions in the original BOM)

[matopotato]

Rechecked the trimmers and they are OK, VOL was not possible to check since a cap is blocking. And I am quite certain they all got in right the first time (and it did sound as it should at one point after soldering and before the thump-wobble)

The 4049 has 14.60V on pin1
0V on pin 8, 13 and 16
And the rest have a sweep between 7.08-7.31 of varying degree.
The sweep rate seems to coincide with the wobbliness.

[duck_arse]

Or what is written on the IC itself (I doubt that though)

exactly so. CD4049UBE, as I see. and the two N/C pins will be nonsense and not interesting.

I'm stumped.

[matopotato]

I read it as Texas Instruments Logo, followed by 5AATFOK and E4 insmaller script underlined.
Next line is CD4049UBE.

And yes, it might be time to call it Stumps on this one.
I will hopefully order a new one and if I get that right, I could possibly compare to at least figure out what happened.
I gave up on a Thumb Sucker compressor (pedalPCB), where a year later I got some new hints on what to try, so always time to return to "abandonbuilds".

There is also a Blueshift waiting for more trobleshooting...

Thanks a million though for encouragement and ideas from all in this forum who chipped in with ideas and things to test and to try.
I really appreciate it although I had hoped there would be a simpler fix for this Flanger.

[matopotato]

OK, now I am stumped as well.
I got a new kit and tried to swap the MN3007 for a new since that was the only IC I hadn't tried to swap before.
With the new in, there is no flanging at all and no thumping either. I am guessing this might be related to the trimmers now being off for the new MN3007, but that is just a guess.
So then I put the old MN3007 back in.
Guess what...
It works. The thumping gone, only pure and nice flanging. Can turn the pots in all directions without reaching any thumping.
I tried the same procedure over again and the same result. New, no flange, Old as it should be.

This I have not been able to figure out what happened there.

So back to boxing it. It is a very tight fit and much to my disappointment, once it is boxed, the thump is back. Applying the 3007 routine again has no effect.
Then I noticed that the DC plug and its connectors are very close to the solder and pads where the wires go in to the board. As I keep working (=messing and fumbling about) I notice that this gets easily shorted.
So I now think this is the culprit (well me and my absence of carefulness) from the start of this thread. Red to black or the black to red, either way I am guessing this caused a short which some while back resulted in the 4047 being fried. Luckily I had some spare 4047's around.
So back to the workbench where in the process some of the wiring came off as well, and in the further processing of restoring that plus my impatience resulted in a pulled eylet and tracing.
Still some more wires and solder later got all the pieces connected as they should again. This time with shrink-tube wherever I could fit it in. Especially on the DC plug.

So I got it all together but the thumping is still there. No matter if I swap around 4047s or 3007s. There is no thump with the "new" 3007, but there is no flange either, just unaltered guitar tone.
Now I do not know if the 3007 routine in itself made something become correct, or if there is another fault or issue I managed to "fix" during this routine, and now that issue is back. A glitchy solder? Have I made a hair thin crack in the PCB that I accidentally fix and reintroduce?
I don't know anymore.

I think that the ICs including the MN3007 are generally in sound condition, something else is causing the thumping, and it can be fixed if I knew more where it happens. So all the parts are able to make the flange in the end when everything is correctly aligned in the pedalverse.
I was first about to see if I could return the new kit I just got, but now it seems I will build that one, a bit more carefully. And then use the first one for parts if needed. The MN3007 of the first kit says XVIVE, the new one not much apart from MN3007.

[duck_arse]

I think that the ICs including the MN3007 are generally in sound condition, ........
The MN3007 of the first kit says XVIVE, the new one not much apart from MN3007.

no no no no - this won't do. there are people here [certainly not me] that are expert in the markings of the BBD's, will be climbing the walls at the thought that you have these devices and you haven't posted a photo of them. right up close and clear, so they can make out all the little details, and then they will tell you things.


in the box, out of the box, working, not working, new parts old parts, which is which, the white collar worker or the digger in the ditch? etc. I'm confused. but, you can now probably say all the parts are good, with a few exceptions -
the wires - are you using single core? they break, and hide that fact.
the board - traces and pads and cracks and cuts ..... inspect inspect inspect.
those bloody IC sockets - and what do I always say about sockets?
the pots ---- you have been bending them clear and then flat again, more than once, is that correct? you may have lifted a pad unseen, or you may have loosened a leg rivet, or even cracked a wafer.

so there's a new list. involes a large amount of very close inspection and observation, and much probing of those pot lugs and the off baord wires, see if you can stress them bad - or good. also, try flexing the pcb itself in a few directions, see if it falls apart in your hands.

looks like yer in the home straight. I've no idea what position you're going to finish, tho.


what's your next project? tell me it's a rangemaster or an electra distortion or an ea trem, please.

[matopotato]

I think that the ICs including the MN3007 are generally in sound condition, ........
The MN3007 of the first kit says XVIVE, the new one not much apart from MN3007.

no no no no - this won't do. there are people here [certainly not me] that are expert in the markings of the BBD's, will be climbing the walls at the thought that you have these devices and you haven't posted a photo of them. right up close and clear, so they can make out all the little details, and then they will tell you things.

The new guy from the recent kit to the right:


The incumbent MN3007:


Their home location:

in the box, out of the box, working, not working, new parts old parts, which is which, the white collar worker or the digger in the ditch? etc. I'm confused. but, you can now probably say all the parts are good, with a few exceptions -
the wires - are you using single core? they break, and hide that fact.
the board - traces and pads and cracks and cuts ..... inspect inspect inspect.
those bloody IC sockets - and what do I always say about sockets?

As long as they are cheaper than the IC they are housing, replace them. And if needed in a brutal way. (Although I prefer semi-brutal, like 4 pins in a row at a time. One by one turned out to be a mess in my case)

the pots ---- you have been bending them clear and then flat again, more than once, is that correct? you may have lifted a pad unseen, or you may have loosened a leg rivet, or even cracked a wafer.

Yes, I confess to bending multiple times. I still do not think this is where the problem is, but point taken. Adding to the check-list

so there's a new list. involes a large amount of very close inspection and observation, and much probing of those pot lugs and the off baord wires, see if you can stress them bad - or good. also, try flexing the pcb itself in a few directions, see if it falls apart in your hands.

OKI, point taken

looks like yer in the home straight. I've no idea what position you're going to finish, tho.

Yes, I saw the house. then it disappeared again...
As I tried to explain before, I think the cause for my problems is carelessness with +9V and whatever is grounded.
So I have tried a few more things and it seems the 1054 is causing the thump. I can be heard at 2,4 and 6 seconds.
https://soundcloud.com/user-558594533/old-1054?in=user-558594533/sets/1054-and-flintlock&si=0a9628f8e6ba4bf49d16a2ce5a95585c&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

With the 1054 from the new kit, the thump is sort of gone. There is like a "bird-chirp" in there though.
It can be heard at 15s and 20s.
The first strum is the same speed as the first sample, but the chirp is not very clear.
https://soundcloud.com/user-558594533/new-1054?in=user-558594533/sets/1054-and-flintlock&si=dc16231da02343098efee0f11e7922fb&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
This could very well be related to the settings of the trimmers and could be dialed away.

what's your next project? tell me it's a rangemaster or an electra distortion or an ea trem, please.

Well, I am still hoping to get the Flintlock working.
I also have a Blueshift from Aion FX that does not "chorus", but I haven't really used the scope on it yet.
Then Adineko/(Don't) Tell Ray
And a Dup Phaser from pedalPCB
Sweet Thing or Booster 2.5
And Gravitation Reverb also from pedalPCB

Who knows, if you are really lucky I might appear in another thread when I fail these projects. 

[eh la bas ma]

With the 1054 from the new kit, the thump is sort of gone. There is like a "bird-chirp" in there though.
It can be heard at 15s and 20s.
The first strum is the same speed as the first sample, but the chirp is not very clear.
https://soundcloud.com/user-558594533/new-1054?in=user-558594533/sets/1054-and-flintlock&si=dc16231da02343098efee0f11e7922fb&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
This could very well be related to the settings of the trimmers and could be dialed away.

This "chirp" isn't going to disappear with calibration. It's the voltage pump's noise. That's what i meant when I told you about taking IC11 off the board, and using an 18V power supply, instead of 9V. That's the only way to get it perfectly silent.

As long as you'll use a 9V power supply and IC11, there will be some background noises like this whistling noise you noticed.

I got a new kit and tried to swap the MN3007 for a new since that was the only IC I hadn't tried to swap before.

You said you got a "new kit", you mean only the ICs, or a full Flintlock kit with a new pcb and all ?

[matopotato]

With the 1054 from the new kit, the thump is sort of gone. There is like a "bird-chirp" in there though.
It can be heard at 15s and 20s.
The first strum is the same speed as the first sample, but the chirp is not very clear.
https://soundcloud.com/user-558594533/new-1054?in=user-558594533/sets/1054-and-flintlock&si=dc16231da02343098efee0f11e7922fb&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
This could very well be related to the settings of the trimmers and could be dialed away.

This "chirp" isn't going to disappear with calibration. It's the voltage pump's noise. That's what i meant when I told you about taking IC11 off the board, and using an 18V power supply, instead of 9V. That's the only way to get it perfectly silent.

As long as you'll use a 9V power supply and IC11, there will be some background noises like this whistling noise you noticed.

Many thanks, and "phew", then I am on the right track at least. Funny thing though, when I had swapped the BBDs before zapping the second time, there was actually no chirping.
But now at least I have a plan that should work following your "18V mod"

I got a new kit and tried to swap the MN3007 for a new since that was the only IC I hadn't tried to swap before.

You said you got a "new kit", you mean only the ICs, or a full Flintlock kit with a new pcb and all ?

The full everything 
Unfortunately they sent me the wrong pot (C100k instead of C500K) plus 2 wrong resistors. Nothing that can't be fixed though, but might take some time since my local electronics component shop is on vacation. (I know, I am soooo lucky to have a shop like that in my town. Enclosures and knobs, some ICs, diodes, connectors, switches, some transistors, sockets, resistors, caps, you name it... a bit more costly, but a pedal-saver sooo many times)

[matopotato]

I tried with 18V and it is clearly better.
First the chirp was still there. Then after some pot turning it was quite gone and couldn't dial it back.
The thumping is also gone, but replaced by something similar but much softer. As if the  ause still exists but the symptoms are quite mild.
I think I  will go ahead and build the second copy and see where it goes.
Hopefully either of them will be good enough for boxing.

EDIT: When I was swapping the BBDs at first and it suddenly worked with the old BBD (and before I  managed to goof that golden state up) I should say that the Flanging sounded really good and I understand what @Eh la bas ma meant by this. Hopefully worth the continued pursuit and effort.

[eh la bas ma]

I think I  will go ahead and build the second copy and see where it goes.

You had a lot of flux and solder residues on your board, may I suggest to try to avoid that on your next attempt ?

I am not sure where it comes from, either the solder you are using, or the iron's temperature (should be around 400°C). Or maybe it's the iron's tip's angle when you solder something on the pcb (I guess the tip should be as vertical and  as pependicular to the board as possible).

I should say that the Flanging sounded really good and I understand what @Eh la bas ma meant by this.

It's even better than anything i could say, far beyond words.

You will probably have to spend some time to find the best settings on some trimmers : Mix clean/wet, which is interacting with Feedback, and maybe slightly reduce the sweep range,  if there are some white noises at the top or at the bottom of the sweep.

Once your build will be fully working and carefully calibrated , you will become a different man : One of those few people who know the true power of flanging, one of those few lucky people who had a glance at the true beauty of this world.

Beware the well-known side effect : many other modulation circuits will sound dull and boring in comparison.

I would also suggest to write "18V" on your 18V power supply's tip, or you may use it by mistake on some 9V circuit, and damage something.

[matopotato]

Finally an update.
I got a brand new kit and built it. The BBD was not working at all, but I reused the MN3007 from the first build and it works!
So whatever causing the "clicking" issue in the first build is not related to the BBD at least.
Anyway, got it together. Tested every soldering point by "leg to next pad on the schematic" method. Slow, but I feel it is worth it.
The design is meant for 1590BB, but if you want the expression jack a bigger box is needed according to the instructions.
So being the fool I am, I take that as a challenge and decided to push everything expression jack and all into said 1590BB.
Two things stand out as far as challenges in the build:
The power jack needs to be the smaller kind ("2.1mm"?) but even so it is a tight fit. The first build suffered from this where I probably managed to short the jack to the 9v and G solder points on the PCB during all twists and turns to fit the whole thing. I would recommend using shrink tube on the jack+wire solder points to prevent this. Also twist the cables "counterwise" so that the nut can be screwed on on the inside by just twisting the jack.
The second is the switching jack for the expression pedal. In hindsight I doubt it is going to get much use, so might not be worth it after all, but I hade made my mind up.
So this second attempt, knowing how tight the fit is made me file and cut it down as much as I could. Turning it upside down and folding lugs as well to help the fitting as much as I could.





This time the stomp breakout PCB was a bigger problem than the other items.



Sorry, but I missed taking a picture of the other side of the board before mounting it. This time around I got a big bottle of Isoprop-something-alcohol and let the whole board float for a while, and it did the trick. Previously I had sprayed on and used a brush or swabs and what not, which sort of smeared out the flux residue. This time around it got really clean.

Then lots of calibration. The moosapotamus calibration videos are super helpful and a must in this case  (IMHO).
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=moosapotamus+flanger+calibration

Still, after having done this, I might want to go back and adjust some more after playing a bit.

I noticed that the knobs were just a tiny bit too big for the drill template so the Threshold and Manual knobs grab hold of each other. Nothing that couldn't be resolved by some mild violence though.

This is the final result:



Finally I want to thank everyone who have contributed and replied in this thread, not only providing ideas or answers or tips, but the knowledge of not being alone during late night troubleshooting sessions made me carry on. Without your support I think I would have given up, never attempted a second build, and probably glided away from pedal building in total.
Looking at my filled floor in my room this might happen anyway, but then it would be for other (better?) reasons.

Many thanks!