Ansil, why oh why do you hate perf?

[ExpAnonColin]

My problem was that it was hard to get the measurements just right-like, how far apart are the pins on an IC? Transistor?  How big should I make the holes?  How wide the trace?  Etc.

-Colin

Um, didn't you get a parts library when you downloaded the program? There are a lot of parts already made up and they were included with the last version I downloaded.

Pins on components are usually on a 0.1" grid, or some multiple of that. You can set the grid in PCBwarrior to whatever dimension you want and set it to snap to that grid, if you're making your own parts.

Last time I made a layout with PCBwarrior i did the following:

1. increase the pad diameter for all parts. By default it's set very small, which is good for manufactured boards - bad for hombrew PNP layouts that'll have hand drilled holes. You can make the pads pretty big, if you don't need to run traces between IC pins.

2. Trace width can be just about anything, as long as you keep it LESS than the pad diameter. This will keep solder on the pad, rather than flowing it back onto the trace.

3. I made the holes in the pads very small. You want them large enough to come through the PNP process, but smaller than the drill diameter. They act more as an aid to center the drill in the pad than anything else.


I can forward you the parts library I have if you need it, but you can probably download them from mr. Kloos' ftp site. Look for the link on www.versiontracker.com.

Oh my, I totally missed the parts library.  I'll try it again.

-Colin

[Mark Hammer]

Both PCB layouts and perfboards have their respective inconveniences.  

I too often find that the components I have on hand do not match the dimensions on a PCB layout.  Usually this is a case of capacitors (obviously chips and transistors have a standardized spacing) with different voltage ratings (hence different dimensions), but plenty of times a circuit calls for a less common resistor value (4 or 5 times!) that I only have as a "recycled" part in my parts bin, and the shortened leads won't reach where they need to go.  

I also find that many (though not all) PCB layouts don't provide enough flexibility for installing mods.  In contrast, perfboard allows me to stick in another cap or whatever and wire up a toggle or something.

Perfboard is something I can use just about anywhere, whereas the risks associated with etching require a somewhat larger workspace.  Moreover, if I end up finding no use for a perfed project, I can remove the components and re-use the perfboard.  A PCB layout is good only for the intended project.

Perfboard can be cut to whatever dimensions your chassis demands, where PCBs assume some particular chassis.  Although a large proportion of folks here and out there in the commercial boutique pedal world have adopted the Hammond 1590BB and 1590B as a sort of standard, sometimes you find a nifty inexpensive chassis that comes in other forms, and the PCB may not be suited to that.  The Anderton EPFM projects have been mentioned here, and I have to say I always found the PCB layouts for them way too big and awkward to use in stompboxes.

Finally, if I don't like a project made on a PCB, usually the leads have been clipped so short that recycling those parts is difficult.  With perfboard, wrapping a cap lead once or twice around the stump of a resistor lead assures that you can desolder that cap and have plenty of lead left for installing into other devices should you need to.

Which brings me to why perfboard can be troublesome.  As hard as I try to keep the solder side low profile, these huge lumps of solder and component leads stick up way too far, often requiring sacrificing critical bits of chassis space just to avoid shorts.

The "convenience" of perfboards invites jumping into a project without planning ahead much (because planning doesn't seem to be demanded), and invariably you find yourself backed into a sort of corner and needing stupid things like wires stradding parts of the circuit and passing dangerously close to points that might invite oscillation.

Unless it is a ridiculously simple project, most things I build on perfboard require more than an evening, and the more evenings it takes the greater the risk that I will lose track of where I left off.  You need to *remember* to run every ground connection to a ground point and unless you make that ground connection with every new component inserted (which is, paradoxically, bad practice with perf because you need to leave yourself some flexibility with respect to component placement) the chances are pretty damn good you're going to forget at least *one* such connection and be mystified when it doesn't work.  The pad-per-hole things are nice in that regard since you can simply keep a note of which ground or power connections remain to be made using the alphanumeric coordinates (e.g., E5, G8, etc.).  Still, with PCBs there is nothing you "have to remember to get back to".  All the wiring is essentially done for you and it is simply a matter of populating and powering.

Where PCB layouts provide easily identifiable test-points, perf layouts, in my experience, often don't.  Sure, there is nothing preventing anyone from using "flea clips" and other things that provide ample test points and spacious access to them, but the temptation of creating a tight compact circuit that perfboard invites tends to reduce the number of times I provide anything remotely resembling accessible test points.

While we're talking about space, itis certainly the case that perf-board provides more flexible room for mods, but you have to plan out the mods first.  Thinking of a mod *after* the fact can necessitate irritatingly disruptive disassembly.  Let's take the "simple" case of a Rangemaster.  At the base of the single transistor, there are four components tied together: the input cap, two resistors and the transistor lead.  If I decide post hoc to change input cap values, I have to unsolder four components; five if I decided to use a bleed resistor ahead of the input cap to address popping.  If it is a board, I just take out the cap and stick in another, with much less risk of heat damage to the transistor.

PCB's, because they hold the component rigidly, are somewhat less prone to mechanical breakage of connections, although pad-per-hole boards address this problem adequately.

So, there are problems associated with each assembly method.  There are some things (like the PAiA Stereo Compressor and Rocktave I started this past week) that I would not dream of building on perfboard, some things like a simple chorus or tremolo that I might not mind building on perf but would happily use PCB if the situation presented itself.  Some things, like discrete transistor circuits, are often extremely easy to perf because of the ease of running emitter connections to ground on one edge of the board and collector connections to the other edge, where IC-based projects are a little more difficult in that regard.  In other cases, the use of a PCB holds no distinct advantage and I can get into a project much easier and quicker if I perf.  IN still other cases, there is no layout available and waiting for one to either emerge or do it myself just stalls things.  Finally, there is always the total DIY project in which the device being attempted is a true one-of-a-kind with play-it-by-ear mods.  Although the ideal is to breadboard first, settle on a design, lay out a PCB, and THEN build, one needs to remember that these devices are for ROCK AND ROLL, which means there will be a certain amount of impetuousness associated with their use, hence with their building.  I mean, if I was willing to wait, what sort of rocker would I be anyways, right?  

[smoguzbenjamin]

:shock:  Jeez laweez! How long did it take you to type all that out? :twisted:

[Mark Hammer]

How long?

Not nearly as long as I had to wait for that cruddy batch of etchant to finally eat away the copper on a board the other night!

[Kilby]

Heheh,

all methods have their place.

At the minute PCB is best I want to have a few 'standard' pedals that do roughly what I want.

Once I get that phase over there will no doubt be more perf board around for proper playtimes. The sad thing is though I always used to like working out neat PCB layouts (and it's even more fun with the cad software around these days).

Anyway I was feeling misrible today so I bought a marshall blues breaker 2 this afternoon, and it impreves the sound of my stinky Line 6 amp.

Regards,

Rob...

[bwanasonic]

Both PCB layouts and perfboards have their respective inconveniences.  

I still plan a layout using ExpressPCB when I do a perf build (which for me means pad-per-hole. Plain perf always seemed way too cheesy to me). I also print out a *reverse* image of the solder side, and check off connections as I go. This addresses the interupted build. You don't mention the use of sockets for caps. This can pretty much solve any problems with changing cap values. I also ALWAYS socket transistors and ICs. When I get a Dremel with Drill press attachment, I'll be more open to the idea of etching and drilling. I'm still at a pretty rudimentary level of circuit design right now.

Kerry M

[hair force one]

As a matter of fact i couldn't afford PCB (too complicated) and perfboard is not available at the local shop so i ended up with DIY PERFBOARD concept, and it suits pretty well the diy perfboard philosophy (and costs zero too).
See how y do at http://partouze.chez.tiscali.fr/stomp/electro-moronix.htm (click on breed perfboard!)

[Nasse]

hair force one, you have the attitude, cool pages!

[Bill_F]

In the last couple of days I've experienced both sides of this debate. I built and EasyVibe on PCB. Something I would have never attempted on perf. Then I built a EA Tremolo on perf. Something simple enough that I didn't want to waste all the time preparing a PCB. I think being able to use both is a nice balance.

Bill

[smoguzbenjamin]

Perfboard is excellent when you're a beginner, like me. Well, I've breadboarded a couple of circuits and I'm ready to put the on perf, but I like perf a lot! It gives you a little more insight on a circuit that printing and populating a PCB. Unless you just wanna blindly build ckts and not really learn to design 'em yourself.    But I like perf.

[RDV]

[PB Wilson]

I'm finishing up my fourth perf project and am beginning to enjoy the challenge of fitting all the parts together so it fits into smaller enclosures. I've been lucky so far, but have a bit of anxiety when it comes to larger, more elaborate circuits.

I must say that the perf layouts on Runoffgroove are a blessing and I hope more people will take this idea and run with it.

[B Tremblay]

I must say that the perf layouts on Runoffgroove are a blessing

Thank you!  I'm glad you've found them useful.

[PB Wilson]

Absolutely! I'm attempting the Double D next. I doubt I'd try a project that uses an IC at this point without a better visual that you have so kindly provided. Keep 'em coming!

[D Wagner]

I must say that the perf layouts on Runoffgroove are a blessing and I hope more people will take this idea and run with it.

Those layouts on Runoffgroove are the ONLY way that I would even consider doing a build on perfboard.  

I did my first build ever (LM386 amp) on perf, and hated it.  I have done nearly everything else on PCB's.  Even small circuits like the Bazz Fuss, Millennium Bypass and LPB-1.  

Derek

[Gringo]

hair force one wrote:

As a matter of fact i couldn't afford PCB (too complicated) and perfboard is not available at the local shop so i ended up with DIY PERFBOARD concept, and it suits pretty well the diy perfboard philosophy (and costs zero too).
See how y do at http://partouze.chez.tiscali.fr/stomp/electro-moronix.htm (click on breed perfboard!)

Great!!! I love it, and just have a couple of scavenged boards i can recycle  :twisted:

I'll give perf a try, always used pcb with great results.

[B Tremblay]

Those layouts on Runoffgroove are the ONLY way that I would even consider doing a build on perfboard.

You guys really have the Thanksgiving spirit!  It's very rewarding to hear positive feedback.

[Peter Snowberg]

Hair force one,

You are a mad man!... and I mean that in the best possible way.

-Peter

[Ansil]

even i have to admit that the perf layouts at runoff are teh best..  if i only had that type of mind to arrange stuff so neatly and orderly.   i can make a diagram for almost anything but not neat.. lol

[hair force one]

Hair force one,

You are a mad man!... and I mean that in the best possible way.

-Peter

thanks guys but it ain't so hard to do a perfboard circuit based on a pcb drawing. The MXR dist+ was my first try at it and i just finished John Hollis' Crash Sync (which works great), it seems that my soldering skills gets a lil' better each time...
I think you should consider give it a try, it's just a little bit longer to achieve but a little bit more fun, even for beginners (including me, i've made seven effect projects so far...