R.G??? Please help me:):) Or any other..

[ESPguitar]

Now is pins 3,4 and 6 separately grounded with each their 100K resistor..

All voltages is now:

Pin 3 0,00V

Pin 4 0,00V

Pin 5 0,00V

Pin 6 0,00V

When i touch the 10K resistor to pin 6 both led's and the relay die..

Touching pin 4 with the 10K resitor All on..

Voltages at ON

pin 2 11,63V
pin 5 11,63V

Voltages at OFF

pin 2 0,005V
pin 5 0,005V

Pin 2 and 5 is connected together..

When i touch pin 3 with the 10K resistor everything turns on..

[R.G.]

When i touch pin 3 with the 10K resistor everything turns on..

What we are testing here is the basic operation of the flipflop. If it cannot be made to alternate, it is likely a bad flipflop.

Pin 6 is the "set" input, which causes the Q output (pin 1) to go high and the -Q output (pin 2) to go low regardless of the state of the clock.
Pin 4 is the "reset" input, which causes the Q output (pin 1) to go low and the -Q output (pin 2) to go high regardless of the state of the clock.
These seem to be working correctly.
Pin 5 is the data input, where the voltage on pin 5 will be clocked into the pin 1 Q output when the clock goes high. This is connected to the pin 2 -Q output. This effectively tells the flipflop "whatever state you're in, do the opposite state when the clock rises."

The clock input on pin 3 is edge triggered. It makes the high/low state on pin 5 be clocked to the pin 1 Q output whenever it rises from low to high. The high to low transition is ignored. We have pin 3 held low with that 100K resistor, and when we touch it with a 10K to +12, the 10K pulls it instantly to almost 12V.

What is strange here is that it appears that this works only once. There are several possibilities for causing that. One of those is that the 100K "ground" on pin 3 is not making good contact. That would let pin 3 go up high, but not drain back down with the 100K. When you probe pin 3 with your voltmeter, the voltmeter itself drains the pin 3 voltage back down to 0. So we have to test for that.

You might turn the power to the circuit off, and change your voltmeter to resistance reading, largest scale. Now leave the black clip on ground and touch the red probe to pin 3. Does it read 100K, or much, much larger resistance? Touch only pin 3, not the 100K resistor lead.

It is possible that the 4013 is damaged in a way that lets pin 3 operate once. That is hugely unlikely, but a possibility.

If the preceeding test turns up nothing, turn on the power to the circuit. Read the voltage on pin 3 (which should be 0V). Touch the 10K resistor probe to pin 3. LEDs should change state. Leaving the 10K resistor on pin 3, measure the voltage. Leave the voltmeter lead on pin 3 and remove the 10K resistor. Does it go back to 0v?

If it does, touch the 10K resistor to pin 3 again. Does it now change state on the LEDs a second time?

[ESPguitar]

Ok,

First this happened..(3) It didn't change state.. 10,94 volts while the 10K probe was on pin 3. And when i removed the 10K probe from pin 3 it went to o,00V..

So.

It was 99,5K across ground pin 3 while power off.


I held the red probe from my voltmeter to pin 3, touched pin 3 with the 10K probe and it changed state to off, When i touched pin 3 with the 10K probe (still holding red probe from V-meter on pin3) it went on..

I did this without holding the red probe from V-meter to pin3 and it changed state if i held the 10K probe with a plier, but not if i held the 10K probe with my fingers.. I had the plier at the tip of the 10K probe, 2cm from pin3 when i touched it.

So there's a difference there!

Why?

RB

[R.G.]

Well, at least that established that the flipflop is not damaged. We just have to feed it the correct clock.

I did this without holding the red probe from V-meter to pin3 and it changed state if i held the 10K probe with a plier, but not if i held the 10K probe with my fingers.. I had the plier at the tip of the 10K probe, 2cm from pin3 when i touched it.

The inputs to these things are so sensitive that noise picked up from your finger could have been causing problems.

But the flop works.

Now hook up the inverter section that will drive the clock pin. Tell me back which pins. On this one, tie the input to +12 through a 100K resistor,  and put a 0.01 capacitor from the input to ground. Have read a loose wire with one end connected to ground.

As before, report back which pins you use for the inverter, and when you apply power, read and report back the voltages on the power, ground, input and output pins, and the state of the LEDs.

Now test. Touch the grounding wire momentarily to the junction of the 100K/0.01uF cap/input pin. The LEDs should change from off to on to off to on... each time you touch it. If not, touch and hold it, and read voltages on the input, output, and pin 3 of the flipflop.

[ESPguitar]

But, what about the three 100K resistors connected from ground to pin 3,4 and 6 on the flip-flop?

Pin 2 from the remote board 40106 goes to pin 3 on the 4013.
Pin 1 on the remote board 40106 is input from the 100K resistor from + and the 0,1 cap.

When i touch pin 1 on the trigger with the grounded wire it goes on-off off-on as it should.

RB

[R.G.]

But, what about the three 100K resistors connected from ground to pin 3,4 and 6 on the flip-flop?

The one on pin 3 needs to stay there. Pins 4 and 6 may now be permanently connected to ground without the resistor, or you can leave the resistors there. We only put the 100K's in the path to ground at pins 4 and 6 so they could be pulled up with our 10K test probe. Pin 3 must be able to be pulled up by the inverter from the switch, so it needs the 100K to stay there to pull it "loosely" to ground.

When i touch pin 1 on the trigger with the grounded wire it goes on-off off-on as it should.

And we have ignition and and lift-off as they used to say in the space program. The logic path is now working properly.

All we have to do now is to get the switch driving the pin1 on the trigger to work properly and we're good to go.

Wire up the switch as shown. The two outer "throws" are connected to +12. The pole is connected to the junction of the 1nF/0.001uF capacitor and 100K resistor to ground.

Wire this up, try it, and report back what happens.

The pole is the terminal of the switch that is switched alternately to one, then the other of the throws. The throws are never connected to one another by switch action. On stomp switches, the pole is usually in the center between the two throws.

This switch operation depends on the fact that most alternate action switches are "break before make" - that is, the contacts that are connected disconnect before the contacts that are going to make contact do actually make contact. There is a small time when **neither** throw is connected to the pole. The circuit depends on this. Some switches will not work mechanically. Most will.

[ESPguitar]

It works perfectly      

I wired up the bypass all switch to, and it only works without the 100K resistor from ground connected to pin 6..

Is that ok?

EDIT: And when i hook the breadboard with all the components (includes the power supply) in between my amp and guitar it hums like hell..

I remove power from the ciurcuit just to see that it's not the power supply who makes the buzz.. And it's nothing difference..

Yes, the jacks are serial grounded..

Thanks,

RB

[R.G.]

It works perfectly  

Yahoo! Mother Nature has led us down some more of Her paths.  

I wired up the bypass all switch to, and it only works without the 100K resistor from ground connected to pin 6. Is that ok?

It's not only OK, it's mandatory.

Remember that there was an error on the "Bypass All" switch wiring. All of the "Set" pins on the three 4013's (pins 6 and have to be tied together and pulled UP to +12 with a 100K. Then the "Bypass All" switch pulls them all to ground at the same time for normal operation or lets them all be pulled up to +12 for making all of the relays bypass at the same time.

[ESPguitar]

It works perfectly  

Yahoo! Mother Nature has led us down some more of Her paths.  

I wired up the bypass all switch to, and it only works without the 100K resistor from ground connected to pin 6. Is that ok?

It's not only OK, it's mandatory.

Remember that there was an error on the "Bypass All" switch wiring. All of the "Set" pins on the three 4013's (pins 6 and have to be tied together and pulled UP to +12 with a 100K. Then the "Bypass All" switch pulls them all to ground at the same time for normal operation or lets them all be pulled up to +12 for making all of the relays bypass at the same time.

I wan't to thank you for helping me R.G  
I really appreciate that..

But what about the noise where do it come from :shock:  :? ?

Robin

[ESPguitar]

Aaaaand: I placed a 0,1 ceramic cap between the signal in and -.. I got rid of the buzzing..

Is that a good solution? And if that should i use a ceramic, poly, electrolytic or whatever cap?

Thanks,

Robin B

[R.G.]

But what about the noise where do it come from?
...
Aaaaand: I placed a 0,1 ceramic cap between the signal in and -.. I got rid of the buzzing..
Is that a good solution? And if that should i use a ceramic, poly, electrolytic or whatever cap?

OK, from these posts, I gather that you have a buzzing in the audio path through the relays, and that you have squashed that by adding a capacitor from signal in to ground.

So first - describe the noise. If it's a buzzing at power line frequency, similar to touching the tip of a guitar cord, then you have a grounding problem.  

There are three "grounds" involved in this project: signal ground, which is the reference voltage for the audio signal, logic and relay ground, which is the - end of the 12V supply that runs the CMOS and relays(which my article calls "logic ground"), and safety ground, which is the third wire on the AC power line that you plug into the wall. Actually, there is a fourth "ground", and this one is the real ground that you (theoretically) are standing on.

If you look at the notes on page 3 of the article, you'll see that I was worried about exactly this when I wrote this up. If you don't connect the various grounds at all, you get hum, or buzz. There can be different situations requiring different grounding. In most cases, you connect logic ground to signal ground at **one and only one point** with a 1M resistor. If that does not help, connect them with a 100 ohm resistor. Some situations require connecting them with a wire, but that is the last resort.

Connecting signal in audio line to the - side of the logic supply might work, but is a poorer choice than connecting the signal ground because the capacitor loads down the signal. You want the signal line free to move around, and so it's better to connect the signal ground to the logic ground.

[ESPguitar]

But what about the noise where do it come from?
...
Aaaaand: I placed a 0,1 ceramic cap between the signal in and -.. I got rid of the buzzing..
Is that a good solution? And if that should i use a ceramic, poly, electrolytic or whatever cap?

OK, from these posts, I gather that you have a buzzing in the audio path through the relays, and that you have squashed that by adding a capacitor from signal in to ground.

So first - describe the noise. If it's a buzzing at power line frequency, similar to touching the tip of a guitar cord, then you have a grounding problem.  

There are three "grounds" involved in this project: signal ground, which is the reference voltage for the audio signal, logic and relay ground, which is the - end of the 12V supply that runs the CMOS and relays(which my article calls "logic ground"), and safety ground, which is the third wire on the AC power line that you plug into the wall. Actually, there is a fourth "ground", and this one is the real ground that you (theoretically) are standing on.

If you look at the notes on page 3 of the article, you'll see that I was worried about exactly this when I wrote this up. If you don't connect the various grounds at all, you get hum, or buzz. There can be different situations requiring different grounding. In most cases, you connect logic ground to signal ground at **one and only one point** with a 1M resistor. If that does not help, connect them with a 100 ohm resistor. Some situations require connecting them with a wire, but that is the last resort.

Connecting signal in audio line to the - side of the logic supply might work, but is a poorer choice than connecting the signal ground because the capacitor loads down the signal. You want the signal line free to move around, and so it's better to connect the signal ground to the logic ground.

If you plug a guitar cable into your amp turn the amp on and hold your fingers on the jack that should be in the guitar you get a buzzing sound..

That's what i have trough the relay now..

Can you explain a bit more about Ground" I've always wondered where all these different groundings comes from..
Childish explained

All my "groundings" is connected to the minus from the power supply.

Robin

[R.G.]

Try reading my postings on "grounding: theoretical question" here:

http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?p=211708&highlight=#211708

[ESPguitar]

Hi,

I've read it..

So i should connect the reference grounding for the signal(the grounding from the jacks) to the chassis? An not directly to the board..

And it pops when i turn a loop on or off.. Mods for that?

PS, will you please read my Over protected power supply/power conditioner yopic?

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=31252

Thanks R.G,  

RB

[R.G.]

So i should connect the reference grounding for the signal(the grounding from the jacks) to the chassis? An not directly to the board..

No. The reference ground for signal connects to the board. The reference ground on the board connects to the chassis at one and only one place.

And it pops when i turn a loop on or off.. Mods for that?

I'm not sure a mod is needed. How exactly is your relay hooked up?

[ESPguitar]

Ok,

So i should connect the audio reference ground for "itself"?

Or to the - from the power supply and then to the chassis (the last alternate have to be wrong??)  :wink:

The relay is a omron G5V-2-H1, maybe i will upgrade to G6A relays later..

Connected like the schematic says.. Can i explain that in another way(?)..
The jacks connected to the relay in/outs"
And the voltage across the coil..

This is the relay schem

http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=showMyPhoto&albumID=301426109&photoID=302463130&security=hGWldX

RB[/url]

[nero1985]

enjoy    :wink:

http://www.geocities.com/transmogrifox/relay

[ESPguitar]

Hi,
thanks for the link but, as you see i've just finished the system..

RB