Tonebener MK11 and 3Knob version Differences?? ?

[analog kid]

The transistor with the 18k resistor and 2200pf cap connected IS Q3 (as shown in layout) in the Colorsound Tonebender, isn't it?? layout....

http://fuzzcentral.tripod.com/benderIII.html
thing is  mine is working correctly it seems sounds good with the right set up trannies in there AS LONG AS you don't clean it up and play the strings lightly.. Which when it will get kind of broken up and blatty. Which I attribute not being able to dial in the collector of Q3!  ALTHOUGH it does get close to 4V with the right trannies Thing is though>..
Aside from the collector being close to 4v rather than BATTERY voltages . Q3 on mine LOOKS almost like Q1 is supposed to be!!  C 4v B 40mV E 0
and  my Q1 (with the Emitter to the Base of Q2) has voltages like Q3 SHOULD have!(again aside from it having close to 7volts as Q1 should) there is voltage on both the Base and Emitter (.69 and .65 respectively)
THIS IS WHY I WONDERED if the Tranisitors were backward in the layouts!
UNLESS the MK11 T.B. and the Colorsound 3Knob T.B. are different, My MK11 clone had the extra gain stage as Q1, And Used Q2 and Q3  like a Fuzz Face (base-Emitter junction)  BUT  ALSO has the Emitter of Q1 and Q2 both going to Ground.and the 3 Knob version I'm speaking of is backward, purposely??, with Q3 as the extra gain stage unconnected and Q1 and Q2 are setup with the base-emitter junction!! HOW CAN These two circuits be ONLY a difference of ONE Extra Knob ? If this is a mistake in the schematics and layouts I'm using I'd like to know but I don't think so. I just don't understand why they are backward from each other as far as the gain staging.  
Anyone have ideas on these layouts and what the problem may be.  Everything on mine IS connected correctly as shown (I'll check the values again but looks good)
PS  I submitted this as a separate post from another about the use of Fixed Resistors for the biasing of these units and what a pain it seems to be to get trannies that work in it.. as I thought they would be two completelty different threads

[analog kid]

Here I will just summarize and simplify the question.. I may be able to get my answers from just knowing this....
CAN ANYONE tell me why the Gain Stages(transistor order) is reversed in the Tondender 2knob and 3knob versions?? IF the only difference is supposed to be an extra control then this doesn't make any sense to me.
The schematic for Mk111 show the FF Pair as Q1 and Q2 , although they are in the same physical position sa Q2 and 3 are on the MK11.  And the MK11 of course shows Q2 and Q3 as the fuzz face pair , still on the right side  of the board though.  Is  the labeling just backwards??
I just don't understand this

[petemoore]

I can't quite make out the question.
 Backward for instance, I'm certain the schematics are 'straight.
 If you're using a fixed 18k for 'Q2CR [FF]' or as collector resistor for the TB's Q3CR, the bias  voltage of the FF part of the TB circuit may not 'fall' where you want it.
 The easiest way to bias is using a 20k trimpot...or use a pot to 'find' the resistance value for TB,Q3,Collector R., don't re-adjust it, pull the pot, measure the pot, use a fixed resistor of about that value there.

[analog kid]

I'm sorry I knew I made it too complicated.
Pretty much the thing is.. The Q2 and Q3 resistors are set up as the "darlington" (or fuzz face ) pair on the Mk11 leaving Q1 as the extra gain stage.  I understand this circuit and have no problems getting it to bias right and all the voltages come out right.
BUT on the Mk111  it's "backwards" ...Q1 and Q2 are set up like the pair leaving Q3 on it's own as the xtra gain stage. I assume which does the fuzzing.   I just don't get why this is different between the two.
Maybe mine is more on than I thought it was  but basically the Q3 voltages on the Mk111 read kind of like the Q1's voltages on the Mk11!!
(ie;  Base 70mV  Emitter 0volt )
Which leaves me wondering why, since the biasing trim DOESN'T go on Q1's Collector in the Mk11, if they are essentially the same gain stage then WHY would "it" go on the Q3 collector in the Mk111 version??
thats' basically where I'm confused.
I put a 20k trim in place of the 18k res on Q3 collector (Mk3) and I can't get the voltage to adjust any higher than about 2.7v
So is this the WRONG transistor to put it on in the Mk111?

[analog kid]

Pete said:
"If you're using a fixed 18k for 'Q2CR [FF]' or as collector resistor for the TB's Q3CR, the bias voltage of the FF part of the TB circuit may not 'fall' where you want it."


I read your reply again and it made me think, THIS IS THE THING THAT CONFUSES me about this circuit!  The Q3 in the Mk111 IS NOT one of the "Fuzz Face" transistors! (far as I can tell at least) it's Q1 and Q2 that are paired up and Q3 is by itself. They have the norm Base/Emitter junction PLUS the Collectors are joined.
I found these 3knob voltages on Homewrecker:
Transistor voltages (using salvaged germaniums and 9.18v battery source)
Q1: C= 3.611, B=1.55, E=1.452
Q2: C= 3.611, B=1.453, E=1.329
Q3: C= 4.29, B=50mv, E=0
Now if these look correct then I had these voltages right from the start! I've been tring to get a Higer (battery ) voltage on the 1/2 Collectors And I didn't think there was enough of a Base-Emitter voltage Drop! Anyone?

Another note is that with a 20k trimpot in place of the 18k resistor on Q3(the one in series with 10k resistors) I CAN'T get it to adjust any more than a couple of tenths of a volt. WHY would this be?[/quote]