Copies of pedal sound different?

[formerMember1]

Hi,
I was wondering something, If you built ten fuzzfaces or 10 rangemasters or whatever.  Would they all sound different even though you hand select everything?  

I know the old fuzzfaces and super lead amps are like this but i was thinking about DIY'ers making pedals now, and if they ever built copies of the same pedal and if they sounded different?

Cuz i built two rangemasters the first one is awesome really trebley but in a good way, makes my amp sound like a plexi superlead(closer to the vintage trebly hendrix tone)  But i built a copy of it, and literally pulled the OC44 out of the first one and used it in the 2nd RM.  Biased the same obviously and got the same collector voltage(7.02)  But it sounds way sweeter and richer with less treble.  I liked the sound of the first one better though! The only changes i made with the 2nd Rangemaster was an

LED,
2.2M pulldown resistors,
DC jack,
Polarity protection diode,
and aluminum enclosure instead of the 1st RM had a cardboard enclosure(i was learning  :wink: )

(i have another thread entitled "DC adaptor jack help"  about the above, but i should of made a new thread for the above instead of putting it in that thread i guess.  :oops:

thanks

oh yeah the pedal only works with a battery i can't get the adaptor jack working, if you wanna help about this problem, read the  "DC adaptor jack help"  thread.

[Mark Hammer]

I would think that would depend on whether the things you are hand-selecting for represented all the pertinent variables for the specific type of component.  For instance, using resistors matched within 1% reproduces one set of "conditions" quite accurately.  Matching caps with respect to capacitance only is probably almost as good a match, but keep in mind there are leakage and other differences between types of caps.  Matching transistors on hfe only is likely to be a less perfect match than what occurs with matching passive components.

If you use 5% tolerance passive components, and germanium resistors, do not be at all surprised to hear audible differences when transistor X is used to replace transistors Y or Z, and all you have matched them for is hfe.  The variation in the passive components alters bandwidth and bias.  I'm not suggesting these would be day and night differences, but sometimes even small-but-audible differences can make a pedal sound better to one set of ears than another.

[formerMember1]

I use 1% metal film resistors,  and the transistor i used was literally the same one from the first pedal.  I basically took it out of the sockets and soldered it in new pedal.  I am thinking that the 2.2M pulldown resistors changed the high end.  Do you think this could be it?

[Mark Hammer]

No idea.

[formerMember1]

i got my adaptor working and i don't know why but it now sounds the way it used to in the 1st pedal.  I am using an adaptor now, and before i used a duracell battery.

[Marcos - Munky]

Maybe a "sweet spot" when the battery starts to get out of power? Some effects sounds better with a almost dry battery.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Fuzzes are notoriously dependent on power supply voltage and impedance. As you have just found out!
Which is why you should make the 'flat battery simulator" next!! as in the 'deluxe regulator' on this page: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Spyder/spyder.htm

[formerMember1]

Ok here is what it was,

I measured my vodoolabs pedal power's 8 jacks, some measured 9.04, 9.07,9.43,9.26 etc(something close to those #'s) Anyway, if i used say the 9.26 jack to power the pedal when i biased the collector to 7.02 volts, then when i rebuilt the pedal i couldn't get the adaptor working, so i had to try about 10 eveready carbon zinc batteries until i found one that was dying or new, that biased the pedal to 7.02volts or very close.  But the impedance was now different.  

I do like the sound of carbon zinc batteries in my Rangemaster but i couldn't get a constant 7.02 volts on the collector, becuase as R.G. helped me out with, the battery was always changing voltages as it got used.  That is why i switched to an adaptor jack.  But i tried different series resistance of 100ohms to 470ohms and everything in between to simulate the impedance of a battery when using an adaptor, but all i could hear was a loss of high end, not anything closer to a carbon zinc battery. it sounded thicker and bassier with a 470ohm series resistance, the 100ohms was a slight difference.

Anyone ever do this with pleasing results? :?:

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

i am basically thinking out loud here, but could the pulldown resistors create a parallel impedance ( ? ) and lower the impedance enough to roll off some high end?

[Ge_Whiz]

If you use 5% tolerance passive components, and germanium resistors, do not be at all surprised to hear audible differences.

Germanium resistors? Definitely one for the 'mojo' thread!  

[JHS]

Using 1-2,2M pulldown resistors will decrase the highend slightly, but you can compensate this loss by finetuning the coupling caps (if you think it's worth to spend the time in doing this).

Bigger resistors (3,3-10M) can prevent the loss but you may hear a louder popping if you hit the switch, you must allways make a compromise when using pulldown Rs and a true bypass switch.

ICs, caps and transistors have great tolerances. If you swap 5 TL071 you can hear little audible differences, due to the tolerance.
Ge-trannies are much more inconsistent. Even two CV7003 trannies with equal hfe and leakeage will sound different in the same circuit, due to the tolerances and the frequency response.

I think it's impossible to build 2 circuits with Ge-trannies and expect them to sound 100% identical or to make a 100% soundcopy of a given pedal.

JHS

[R.G.]

Capacitors have, at best 5% tolerance. Most non-aluminum ones are 10% at best. Aluminum electros are usually -20%, +80%.

And capacitors affect frequency response.

Try hand selecting capacitors to be identical with a capacitor meter and switching the germanium semiconductors between the boxes to see if you can get more identical.

[formerMember1]

i am gonna keep those ideas in mind when i build a few more Rangemaster's for backup purposes.  I did get it too sound the way i want now, by just getting the adaptor working.   For some reason when i used it that day the sound was totally different.  Then all of a sudden the next day i got the dc jack working and i couldn't believe the sound was back to the way i wanted it.  It still does sound slightly different then my other RM but nothing to complain about, adds more character if anything.  I guess it was a combination of a different batterie's impedance, and i do remember here in north east PA that the weather was up near 90 degrees F for a few days.  Also my amp seemed to be running different, and i also had old strings on(around a week and a half) and i guess when i tried it again at lower temperatures, new strings, and with an adaptor, that "fixed" it.

thanks for the help though since i didn't realize that the toerances of capacitors had that much affect on tone.  I never thought about that.
thanks  :wink:

[formerMember1]

oh boy, Here we go again.  :roll:

It seems my sound has changed again.  I am back to that bassier richer sound instead of the trebley hendrix'y MArshall super lead sound.  Not by choice either!  I can't figure out why it keeps sounding trebly one day and the other sound the next day.  The transistor is still biased at 7.06volts at the collector.  I think maybe i need a reverse biased Ge diode to compensate for temp?  

A couple times when i had the OC44 in the other RM i accidentally put the battery to the battery clip backwards. (probably, 5 times over a period of time, but only for a nano second.)  It was because i was comparing the sound of an adaptor vs carbon zinc battery, and i was doing it quickly to not forget the sound of each.  Could this have made the transistor leaky or something?  I never noticed this type of change of sound untill i put it in the new Rangemaster i built.


Yesterday morning it didn't sound right, then i fixed dc jack and then it sounded good again.  I thought it was the dc jack.  But today i played it and it doesn't sound right again.  And i didn't change ANYTHING at all.  Could a reversed Ge diode fix this or isn't that the prob?

thanks  :wink:

[KORGULL]

Could be the weather conditions or temperature.
Aren't germanium transistors very climate sensitive...?

Also there have been many times I had everything (amp and pedal settings) set up to sound great, turn it off for the night, come back the next day only to find it sounds lousy.
Could be psychological, could be equipment needing to be warmed up just right, could be surges/sags in power. Who knows?
Just goes with the territory I guess.

[formerMember1]

Also there have been many times I had everything (amp and pedal settings) set up to sound great, turn it off for the night, come back the next day only to find it sounds lousy.
Could be psychological, could be equipment needing to be warmed up just right, could be surges/sags in power

that happens to me many times.  BUt in this particular case, it is not psychology.  there isn't a small change in sound it is very drastic.  It goes from the bitey hendrixy tone to a warm thick bassy almost jimi page tone on Madison Square Garden whole lotta love tone/mody dick tone.
I am gonna get me one of those 1N34A for temp stabilization and see if that is the prob.  

[formerMember1]

I just wanna post that after i singed off at my last post, i played the Rangemaster for a few minutes(15mins)  It was back to the trebly hendrix tone. I am gonna pick up a Ge diode for temp control and post up at another time if that fixed it.  

[aron]

That has happened to me many times. Amazing how another copy can sound different.

[vanhansen]

This is just a test post.