The Sound of Distortion

[Paul Marossy]

I can't hear any differences, but that may be due to my cheapo computer speakers. Maybe I could hear it better with headphones... I'll have to try that.

I think Jack's point is a good one. I've never believed that the type of cap in a guitar effect circuit could make much of a difference. Trying different opamps in a circuit is a good example. If there are any changes in the tone, they are so, so subtle that I second guess myself if I am hearing anything at all.

I think this is more of an issue of physcoacoustics than anything else. I mean what if Jack didn't tell us anything about it? What if we just listened to it? Would anyone have noticed anything at all? Or is it because Jack stated what is happening in the sound file the reason why we think we hear something? This is not to say that people can't hear it - I'm sure some can.

Just like some people automatically dismiss transistor distortion. Is it because we read that it sucks, or is it because we really can hear that it does? Or a 32x vs. a 40x CD player. Can anyone really hear the difference between the two? Or is the 40x player perceived to be better because it has a faster sampling rate?

To me, this is like "What came first? The Chicken or the Egg?

[Tim Escobedo]

Paul, I think you really hit the nail on the head. I find that you cannot underestimate the power of suggestion. I learned this lesson good when I used to make musical instruments for a living. After several years, I gained a healthy disdain for musicians.  :wink:  I found the biggest influence on what many musicians hear is dependent on how well they've been sold an idea.

Of course, that doesn't mean there are absolutely no differences. But the thing is, many of these differences cannot be quantified, and they'd be incredibly difficult to scrutinize and obtain repeatable results. So if you have a effect that cannot be quantified and isn't repeatable, you begin to ask, does it really exist?

[Paul Marossy]

I totally agree with you, Tim.  

[amz-fx]

Not related to my article, but interesting nonetheless, is an article about a listening test conducted by Fender:

http://www.milbert.com/TVTIEGA.pdf

The interesting part is how the majority of the participants could not tell the difference between a tube and solidstate amp, especially when setup for a clean sound... these were Pro and semi-Pro guitarists!

More work needs to be done in this area...

regards, Jack

[Jason Stout]

Good read! Thanks

[Hal]

I think a better question is not if you can hear a differnace...but if you listen to one, play a CD, watch some TV, and come back and listen to the other...if you can tell a differnace, and which sound better.  If you can't, even if it is different, who cares?

[Paul Marossy]

"Listening tests indicate two causes for differences in perceived sound in tube and transistor amplifiers. These are ripple intermodulation distortion and frequency response differences caused by the reactive speaker load interaction with the output impedance of the amplifier."

"The change in frequency response caused by the high output impedance of the tube amp is by far the predominant cause for the differences."

I think these few lines out of the conclusion of the article really sum it up. People can hear a difference between the two, but it's apparently not for the reasons usually cited: the relationship between odd and even order harmonics, especially the 2nd and 3rd orders. I do, however, feel that all these things probably work together in the overall sound that a subject hears and shapes the perception of what is being heard. But, myths and half-truths will persist as long as there is tube and transistor amplifiers.

I did learn a few things from reading this article. Thanks for sharing it.  

[Johan]

I believe the first half is the distorted part...but then, my hearing was damaged by marshalls and symbals a long time ago, and I am using windows media player...fun anyway...like allready stated, second order is very hard to detect and it would also be easier if you moved it all up a bit in frequency. most people have their best hearing around 500-1000Hz, the upper regoin of human speach ( so we can hear our childrens voices ? )....so, to those of you who are absolutly ceartain you know when the switch is and wich is wich....good for you...

Johan

[mattv]

It all sounded the same to me, but when I played it backwards  :shock:

:wink:

[phaeton]

Well, FWIW I can hear a change right about 3sec into it.  I think i hear something around 6sec but I'm not 100% sure.  I can't distinguish which is the distorted bit, or which is the non-distorted bit, but i *do* hear a change

[johngreene]

It is pretty obvious to me that the 'distortion' happens at the 3 second mark. But being it's harmonic distortion, it's not 'bad' sounding. As Paul Perry pointed out earlier, distortion measurements are usually done with 2 tones and are measuring intermodulation distortion. Run 2 tones into your 1% distortion and I would think the result would be very noticeable and ugly.

--john

[Johan]

It is pretty obvious to me that the 'distortion' happens at the 3 second mark. But being it's harmonic distortion, it's not 'bad' sounding. As Paul Perry pointed out earlier, distortion measurements are usually done with 2 tones and are measuring intermodulation distortion. Run 2 tones into your 1% distortion and I would think the result would be very noticeable and ugly.

--john

..cool that you dug this old thread up again...with a new soundcard and a pair of decent headphones..yeah..at around 2,80second the buzz hits...   sounds not totaly different from when a strand of hair finds its way in between the foam and the membrane on a set of headphones...

johan

[phaeton]

I came across the website, and was going to post a thread about it, but figured I should probably search and see if it had already been done.... lo and behold!

I use headphones too.  Haven't tried it on the speakers yet, but i bet it won't be audible there.  I was thinking that the 3 sec mark is where the distortion comes in, but i wasn't sure.

Something else to note, is that i notice different players track it slightly differently, so 3 sec on xmms might be 2.8 or 4 sec on Windows Media Player, or such.