Selling Your Pedals

[modsquad]

Rockgarden,  you may be ADD but you have the entrepeneural spirit that will make you successful.  I also admire someone your age taking the interest and initiative in this hobby.  My boys are interested in using what I build, in fact they are better at guitar than I am.  But the extent of it is "Are you done yet?".  I finished a Ruby yesterday and haven't seen it since it left my bench, in fact its not even housed yet.

[boogietube]

Not ripping someone else's work by producing 5000 of them.

Unless you are paying them royalties, or a cut, or purchace boards from them etc.. Agreements can be made with any of the DIY sites Tonepad,GGG, Runofgroove. I have contacted one of them concerning this subject and they were helpful and informative.

[rockgardenlove]

Well, IMO it's very different to clone/tweak a mass produced pedal than it is to rip off a ROG design or so and call it your own.  Ripping off ROG is a total no go.  I think copying massed produced pedals is alright too, for the most part.  Preferably you would tweak it a bunch to make it your own.  The copying old pedals like the Fuzz Face, Clyde, Rangemaster, etc. is rampant and IMO is perfectly fine, as nobody is building them anymore (at least not any good ones, Dunlop FF sucks, Vox Clyde is nothing special, etc.  There are of course other boutique builders building them, but you're no more guilty of copying than they are.

Basically in this last category of pedals, there are only boutique choices.  As I don't have to support myself with my "business" I can afford to sell them for way cheap when compared to Keeley, Analogman, and what have you.  And believe me, these things have started going like crazy.  3 builds on the bench, 5 sold (since I started building+selling consistently), and 4 in a waiting line.

And yeah, these are typically pretty standard pedals for this crowd, but people like them as you really can't get them anywhere else, without spending twice as much (often more, actually).

It's almost getting to be too much.  After I finish this next batch I'm gonna take a break, build myself something wicked cool (Univibe?  Possibly a new tube amp.  ), buy a new soldering iron, and probably buy a router. 

I'm through with the whole mowing lawns thing. 

(Oh, and I don't really have ADD, though sometimes it does seem like it.    )

[JimRayden]

Ripping off ROG is a total no go.  I think copying massed produced pedals is alright too, for the most part. 

In the first case, you will die a horrible death and burn in hell forever, in the latter case, you'll have men in suits knocking on your door. You decide which will be more painful.

Jokes aside, both of them are misdeeds. First one is more of an ethical case while second will get you legally in trouble.

If you can't compete in the world of clones of vintage pedals, go study electronics and make up yer own design. EH proves there's still alot of sounds to explore.

---------
Jimbo

[Ronsonic]

Well, IMO it's very different to clone/tweak a mass produced pedal than it is to rip off a ROG design or so and call it your own.  Ripping off ROG is a total no go.  I think copying massed produced pedals is alright too, for the most part.  Preferably you would tweak it a bunch to make it your own.  The copying old pedals like the Fuzz Face, Clyde, Rangemaster, etc. is rampant and IMO is perfectly fine, as nobody is building them anymore (at least not any good ones, Dunlop FF sucks, Vox Clyde is nothing special, etc.  There are of course other boutique builders building them, but you're no more guilty of copying than they are.

Basically in this last category of pedals, there are only boutique choices.  As I don't have to support myself with my "business" I can afford to sell them for way cheap when compared to Keeley, Analogman, and what have you.  And believe me, these things have started going like crazy.  3 builds on the bench, 5 sold (since I started building+selling consistently), and 4 in a waiting line.

And yeah, these are typically pretty standard pedals for this crowd, but people like them as you really can't get them anywhere else, without spending twice as much (often more, actually).

It's almost getting to be too much.  After I finish this next batch I'm gonna take a break, build myself something wicked cool (Univibe?  Possibly a new tube amp.  ), buy a new soldering iron, and probably buy a router. 

I'm through with the whole mowing lawns thing. 

(Oh, and I don't really have ADD, though sometimes it does seem like it.    )

One of the things that obviously rankles is undercutting prices on someone's pedal. If your hand builds cost less than a mass produced piece from Dunlop, I'd say nobody's got a gripe, except maybe you for working too cheap. But copying someone else's stuff at a cheaper price is just whack. The only one who wins that game is called Ule Behringer. We really shouldn't play.

Ron

[Doug_H]

One of the things that obviously rankles is undercutting prices on someone's pedal. If your hand builds cost less than a mass produced piece from Dunlop, I'd say nobody's got a gripe, except maybe you for working too cheap. But copying someone else's stuff at a cheaper price is just whack. The only one who wins that game is called Ule Behringer. We really shouldn't play.

Ron

I agree we shouldn't play if it involves something currently available. However, I have no qualms about buying something like a Dimension-C "clone" from Ule as that is not available today anyway. As for stuff that is currently available, I don't think it is right to undercut someone with their own design. Everyone has their own personal view on ethics and that's mine.

[caress]

i'm curious what people think about common designs such as feedback loops (which death by audio and effector13 seem to have cornered) boosts or similar sold for a bit cheaper?  is this ethical practice?  my gut tells me it is because these are very common designs which were not designed by these companies...

[skiraly017]

I agree we shouldn't play if it involves something currently available. However, I have no qualms about buying something like a Dimension-C "clone" from Ule as that is not available today anyway. As for stuff that is currently available, I don't think it is right to undercut someone with their own design. Everyone has their own personal view on ethics and that's mine.

I'm confused. So we should only buy a TS-808/clone if it's an Ibanez or priced more than $169? I'm not trying to start an arguement but I don't understand the logic.

[BlackFlag1313]

As far as dealers go:  You'll be looking at cutting them a discount of 30% to 40% off your retail.  Don't forget that you can't go undercutting them either then unless you don't want them carrying your gear.  Smaller stores may do the consignment thing for as little as 20%.  Ebay is good but if you get a cold auction, you can practically give away your pedal.  A string of good feedback and fast shipping is also critical.  One other thing - like another writer contributed - building 40 of the same pedal gets a little dull.  If your building lots of gear, take proper industrial hygiene protection - solder, etchant, finishes are all pretty nasty when chronic exposure is an issue. 
Good luck!

[rockgardenlove]

Ripping off ROG is a total no go.  I think copying massed produced pedals is alright too, for the most part. 

In the first case, you will die a horrible death and burn in hell forever, in the latter case, you'll have men in suits knocking on your door. You decide which will be more painful.

Jokes aside, both of them are misdeeds. First one is more of an ethical case while second will get you legally in trouble.

If you can't compete in the world of clones of vintage pedals, go study electronics and make up yer own design. EH proves there's still alot of sounds to explore.

---------
Jimbo

Get you legally in trouble?  I don't mean copying them and selling them as the original or as clone even.  Just circuit wise.  I mean, look at all the different overdrives and distortions out there.  How different all they all?  Not very, more often than not it's almost the same thing but with maybe a buffer tacked on here, a little different sort of tone control, what have you, but the overall anatomy of the pedal is almost identical.  It seems often like every single overdrive available has the same circuit as the venerable Tube Screamer.  All wah wah pedals are the same, with the exception of the opamp wahs, which are really the same thing just with opamps rather than bipolars.

Maybe I didn't come across how I meant to.  I'm not talking about taking the Behringer course.  I also wouldn't copy actual unique circuits from currently mass produced pedals.  This goes for alot of the EHX gear in particular.  I was talking about the more generic circuits that are basically universally used and then tweaked a bit.

As for building/selling discontinued effects, I almost feel like it's my obligation to do them.  It's sad that Dunlop's Fuzz Faces are so bad, that's the original reason I got into this.  I wanted people to be able to afford a good fuzz for the price of Dunlop's crappy one, even less.  Mine typicall go for 85 or so, with the snazzy NOS transistors and all.  That's pretty good in my opinion for a hand wired pedal with matched, ear tested transistors, true bypass (mojo word, sorry), Switchcraft jacks, and the whole shebang. 

And I don't mean to sound like some massive commercial powerhouse, it's just me in my basement trying to support a rather costly habit.   

[markm]

Most of the "boutiquers" started out by building old tried and true circuits with "tweaks" and sold them one or two at a time.
What's the difference?
I don't really see any. 

[zachomega]

Copyrighting generic designs or trying to protect them is like trying to claim ownership over the word "the". 

Everybody uses it.  Some people use it differently, but it all kind of amounts to the same thing.  It can be done to death. 

However, I can't condone out and out copies of commercially available goods.  Firstly, it doesn't make sense.  Why pay boutique prices for something that can be mass manufactured? 

The charm of boutique pedals is the quality and attention to details and parts.  Most commercial guys aren't going to sell you switchcraft jacks...or even neutrik...if something else will work and is cheaper.  Personally, I find a lot of charm in the spaghetti mess of hand wired items.  It doesn't look as good, but neither did true point to point amps of the 60's.  However, those old Harmony amps easily rivaled more costly amps in tone and quality. 

However, with all of that said, internet sales have basically led up to anonymously being able to sell designs of your own or somebody elses and nobody is the wiser whether you designed or even built it.  Perhaps it is the idealist in me, but I'd like to think that people will know the difference in quality and choose wisely.  However, realistically, I know that not to be true. 

I too at some point hope to sell some of the pedals I've designed...and I'm sure parts of the pedals will look suspiciously similar to other designs at times...Sometimes it can't be helped...I'd even like to maybe make a living off of it at some point...I don't know...I'm rambling. 

Sorry.

-Zach Omega

[GibsonGM]

I'm with Rockgardenlove...

Look at a textbook transistor amplifier.  Then look at the clipping section of a big muff.  Then BazzFuss. All good ideas, involved experimenting and some time, but so similar it hurts.

Go to Fuzzcentral, compare all the different fuzz boxes...see any patterns there? Ha ha.  It seems that if you're a multi-million dollar corporation, nobody has issues with you reworking any design you like, and marketing it yet AGAIN as something new, cuz you changed a 33k resistor to 47k.  Who's watching THEM?  If a DIYer wants to make a FF, change the input cap to 47uF, tweak the bias resistors, and sell it as a design "Based on the famous fuzzes of the late 60's", what's the problem?  That's what they do, in their faceless "McFuzz" way. 

The goal for most of us would be to get something we built out there and in use by someone who will love it, and will appreciate the uniqueness of a hand-tailored pedal - and make $50 to buy more parts...a Dist+ is hard to find, but DIYers can provide one to someone who might not otherwise get to use one.

If a carpenter shows me how to frame a house, and I later build my own houses, am I violating his intellectual property rights?  What a purchaser is actually going to pay for is your time and knowledge, not your originality. Known circuits WORK.  Shall we all avoid diode clipping? I mean, it's been done before 

One should never use a design directly, or anyone's layout, for sure.  Nor should one use others' marketing ideas (trade names).  There are areas to avoid ethically, for sure.   But those vintage designs are out there to be enjoyed, modified, and a few sold.  That's life.