Cheap Pedals from "El Cheapo"

[zombiwoof]

No Target in canada to my knowledge, and Best Buy is one of those stores that requires ear plugs and Gravol to walk into, so I haven't been inone for a while.  Last time I looked a few months ago, though, such devices, or anything guitar related, was not to be found in the store.  Keep in mind that Canadian Best Buy is likely to be different than American Best Buy.  Certainly looking on their web-site reveals precious little that is guitar-related.

Mark,
I share your aversion to the in-store shopping experience, that's why I shop online!.  Oh well, I tried!

Al

[5thumbs]

The Fender chorus looks interesting. A guy on HC claimed it was analog. Is this true?

I'm not sure about whether the chorus is analog, I presume it is, but maybe someone else can verify.  As for the link, just before I saw your post I did a search on Ebay and found his site, yeah that's a bit better than the price from Swamp in Australia, although from Swamp you can get the "slow boat from OZ" shipping for about $17, don't know now long that would take!

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the line of demarcation between digital and analog chorus, in terms of individual components?  My gut feeling is to look for memory chips or an IC other than an op amp/BBD chip/timer chip; these would lead me to believe it is a digital chorus.  Mark, if you're still tuned in, could you throw me a few hints as to what to look for to ID an analog vs digital chorus?

I'm asking this because I'll post back with a report on whether the E20CH is analog or digital chorus.  If I can't figure it out, I'll post some gut shots and let y'all assist in furthering my technical education.

(Thanks)

[zombiwoof]

The guy that asked about the Chorus was talking about the Starcaster Chorus, but I'm sure people are also curious about the Daphon one.

Al

[andrew_k]

I just picked up one of those Lyon Washburn wah's off fleabay for less than an empty shell would have cost me. 
Now time to build a Boomerang wah.

Thanks for the tip!

[GhengisJung]

When you're thinking about cheap pedals, don't forget Danelectro, including the FAB pedals which are about $15 each in alot of music stores, and many of them actually sound pretty good.

[Mark Hammer]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the line of demarcation between digital and analog chorus, in terms of individual components?  My gut feeling is to look for memory chips or an IC other than an op amp/BBD chip/timer chip; these would lead me to believe it is a digital chorus.  Mark, if you're still tuned in, could you throw me a few hints as to what to look for to ID an analog vs digital chorus?

Quite frankly, there is no real utility to producing a digital chorus these days unless it is intended to do tricks beyond mere chorus (e.g., modelled choruses of different types, fancy modulation patterns, etc).  The chips to do it in analog are cheap now, thanks to Behringer, and all the design issues are worked out.  Digital is still more cost-effective if the intent it to produce long delays or loops that can be held, but when it comes to chorus there is precious little advantage to the digital route.  So, I'll guess that if all it does is chorus, and it doesn't SAY it's a digital chorus, then it is an analog chorus.

[aab0mb]

Nady produces the FL-10 Flanger, TR-20 Tremolo, TS-30 Tube Sound Overdrive, TA-40 Tube Amp Simulator/Superdrive, TD-1 Tube Distortion all in the $50 range.  Anyone have any experience with or info about these ones?  They're around on Ebay... 

[brett]

Hi
RE:

You can get the analog delay for around $40.  Might be a cool one to try out a few mods on.

I bought this a while back.  I really like mine.  Very versatile and nice tone.  I was pleasantly surprised by the long lengths of delay.
In summary - It's a wee ripper!

Someone posted that it's an oscillation-maker, implying that it's badly designed or no good.  But the way I see it, osciallations are an intrinsic property of any delay that goes beyond unity in terms of positive feedback.  Turn down the number of repeats, or the depth of repeats, and it's all ok.
cheers

[antojado]

No Target in canada to my knowledge, and Best Buy is one of those stores that requires ear plugs and Gravol to walk into, so I haven't been inone for a while.  Last time I looked a few months ago, though, such devices, or anything guitar related, was not to be found in the store.  Keep in mind that Canadian Best Buy is likely to be different than American Best Buy.  Certainly looking on their web-site reveals precious little that is guitar-related.

I'm in the US and 'on the hole' I hate Best Buy. I don't go there even to browse. I bought a printer there one time because it was the best deal around. They had to get it off the upper shelf because it's 'just' an inkjet. They push the multi-function and the more expensive stuff. The box didn't include a usb cable (thanks HP!) so the salesperson offered to sell me one for a mere $30! That was almost as much as the printer itself! I like shopping online.

[5thumbs]

Someone posted that it's an oscillation-maker, implying that it's badly designed or no good.  But the way I see it, oscillations are an intrinsic property of any delay that goes beyond unity in terms of positive feedback.  Turn down the number of repeats, or the depth of repeats, and it's all OK.

That was me.  Despite the small total number, many of the reviews on the E20DL on Harmony Central talked about the oscillations when Delay Time or Repeat knobs were set above Noon.  Those who could adapt their thinking around that behavior as being acceptable seemed to like the pedal quite a bit.  It appears that Analog Mike has worked with Ohbayashi-san and Daphon to customize their version to get the oscillations sorted out, while providing other improvements (you can read it all here: http://www.analogman.com/delay.htm.)

So I wanted to clarify that I've never tried the pedal, so I can't say it's good or bad by design.  However, others have indicated that the stock pedal has some known oscillating tendencies that appear to show up in a "normal" usage scenario that most users will probably at least try.  I thought it fair to point that out so DIYers could put it on the list of challenges they'll need to tackle if they want to tame the oscillations while they mod the pedal.

It appears there is hope, as Mike discusses some of the mods to their pedal on the aforementioned link:

When we get the pedals from Daphon, we mod them further. We double the delay time with a 3205 chip like the Boss DM2/3. The stock 3208 chip really only works up to 150mS, after about halfway on the delay time knob there is too much noise and whistling. Delay time is about 300mS like most small delays. We also mod the power supply section to work well with a battery or a 9V to 12V power supply. We also add two trimpots (one is the blue thing on the left) for fine tuning the calibration, as the factory does not get calibration very close with fixed resistors. Poor calibration in an analog delay is why a lot of them will make whistling noises. Our delay is calibrated for the highest delay time with absolutely no whistling or odd sounds even at the highest delay time. "

So perhaps it's a "diamond in the rough" rather than "badly designed or no good." 

[moro]

That was me.  Despite the small total number, many of the reviews on the E20DL on Harmony Central talked about the oscillations when Delay Time or Repeat knobs were set above Noon.  Those who could adapt their thinking around that behavior as being acceptable seemed to like the pedal quite a bit.

Yes, it's very easy to make them self-oscillate. But there are plenty of "normal" delay sounds to be found with the repeat knob turned down low. I tend to like more subtle delays anyway, so it works fine for me. With the 3205, I'm getting 300ms delay time before the sound starts to degrade. This is with the delay knob at 12 o'clock. I didn't bother with the mods to shorten delay time, since this pedal is for my personal use--I know not to turn the delay knob past noon.

[antojado]

I built a PT-80 delay using the info at GGG and it self-oscilates quite easily as well if the repeats pot gets much above noon. I seem to remember that there was something that could be modified to change that and it wouldn't surprise me if something similar could be done to the E20 pedal. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if it is the PT-80 schematic!

[Mark Hammer]

I will repeat until I am blue in the face: there are some things whose parameters are so strongly dictated by the basic core technology that there is simply little choice in how you make them.  Grilled cheese sandwiches are one example.  They can be made all fancy, but you simply can't stoop any lower or make it any simpler than two pieces of bread and some cheese between.  So, unless it is burned, or it's made from groundhog-milk cheese or something, you know what you're getting and it should be decent enough. Analog time-based effects are another example.  There have been enough commercial products produced that you can easily see the bare essentials cropping up again and again in all of them.  They HAVE to be designed that way.  So, if there are few degrees of freedom with respect to their design all that is left is to find less costly ways of producing them.  The great republic of China, and the technique of surface mount have made that possible, and the buying power of box stores and on-line equipment vendors has helped to permit even low profit margins keep big companies afloat.  That's how you get $15 FAB pedals.  That's also how you get pedals for $15 that are extremely close to the designs of things that once cost a great deal more.

[5thumbs]

Based upon my observation of the Daphon E20CH guts, I'll have to agree with Mark about choruses being based upon very similar circuit structures.  The Daphon E20CH Super Chorus is pretty darn close to the CE-2 circuit.  I did some work on mine today and found it quite easy to apply the "speed mod" to the E20CH, as well a few other minor changes.

I found a schematic on DiscoFreq's site for the Ibanez CS5 soundtank, which is a dead ringer for the Daphon E10CH Chorus (which is the same thing as the E20CH except for the E10 has a plastic housing, just like the CS5.)  Here's a link to the CS5 schem: http://files.muziq.be/schematics/ibanez_cs5.gif.  It's not 100% accurate on all the components and values (at least not on my E20CH), but it is close enough to be useful.

As for mods, I didn't get too crazy on mine.  The pedal really does sound nice stock, but I wanted to add the speed mod, as well as replace some 1μF electrolytic caps with equivalent film cap replacements:

- R45 (1M stock), changed to 470K for the "CE-2 Speed Mod"
- C20, C16, C17, C9 (1μF aluminum electrolytic stock), changed to 1μF film

Stock, the pedal has a nice midrange hump to it, courtesy of the JRC4558D op amp in it.  Replacing the 1μF electros with 1μF film caps did "de-compress" the sound, making it sound more airy and open.  If you want to cut the mids in the pedal a little, you could replace the JRC4558D with a TL072IP.  To cut the mids even more, you could put in a Burr Brown OPA2134PA.  I chose not to replace the 4558D because I like my choruses to have solid mids.  IMO, if you get them EQ'd too flat, they sound a bit sterile and harsh.  If you're of the mind to replace the JRC4558D, I'd recommend doing the cap replacements first and try it out before you touch the 4558 op amp.

Anyhow, I'd recommend the Daphon E20CH as an alternative to the CE-2.  It's very low-priced, has a metal housing that would likely survive a nuclear holocaust -and- is easy to mod with great results.  But don't take my word for it...pick one up and try it yourself.

[zombiwoof]

For anyone interested, here's a new listing for a slightly used Starcaster Chorus:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280209730799&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Keep in mind that I think Best Buy still has these for $42.95.

Also, if you search Ebay for the "Lyon by Washburn" wah, try just searching for "wah", or something like "Lyon Lion Lyan Lyen Washburn Wah", because I see all kinds of misspellings of the name.

Al