Two Decal Questions

[kurtlives]

I have this pedal that I have painted gray. It hasn't dried yet but I can already tell the gray is a bit darker than I originally planned on. I was originally going to go with a black decal but I think it will get lost in the darkish gray now.

So I am going to go with white. Now how do you go about making a white decal? I mean I already have the design and all but when I print it I imagine I would see nothing, as the decal is white same as the decal paper. Maybe I need black lines around the edges of the decal as a guideline? Ideas?


Also I have this nice purple finish on a pedal I am working on....I want to put gold decals on it. I remember seeing some gold leaf or something way of doing decals a while ago. They are simple decals, just labelling controls really, nothing fancy. This gold leaf gave a great affect and really looked authentic. Any ideas how to do this?

Thanks....Chris

[liddokun]

You can get decal paper that's white, so anything you print as white, will be white. Otherwise, I can't help you with the gold lettering.  Google white decal paper, there are various sources.

[kurtlives]

Uh what?

Decal paper is white normally...Well white backing paper then the clear paper which is the actual decal.

Is that what your saying or I am missing something?

[Zben3129]

what about waterslide?

Zach

[kurtlives]

That's what I use...Water slide decals, get them from SME.

Can I use them?

[davent]

Hi Chris,
You could use the waterslide decals if you have a printer that prints white, pretty rare from what I understand. Here's how I did black on black. Cut a mask slightly larger then the decal lettering, sprayed white through the mask then light green, removed mask, sprayed lots of coats of clear . Once everything was dry and smooth applied the decal over the light coloured patches. Worked OK.

Man I really should dust once in a while.

Haven't tried anything with metal leaf yet so can't help you there.

Have fun
dave

[kurtlives]

Thanks Dave, but what do you mean by spray white through the mask?

Whats the mask?

[liddokun]

Uh what?

Decal paper is white normally...Well white backing paper then the clear paper which is the actual decal.

Is that what your saying or I am missing something?

Sorry, what I meant was, from what I've researched on the net, waterslide decal paper is available in clear or white, where the actual decal paper, not the backing paper is white. If you can get your hands on the white decal paper, you can print stuff on it normally, and the white will still appear. Sorry for not being clearer  above.

[Sody54]

If you can find one and the supplies for it, Alps printers will print white and foils (gold, silver, copper, etc).  They use a process called dye sublimation using colored ribbons.  A couple years ago when I was big into building 1:24 scale model dragsters I was looking into getting one for my own custom decals.  Turned out to be cheaper just having someone in the group I belonged to print them for me. 

I believe Alps was consumed by a larger company a couple years ago, but you can still find the printers on evilbay as well as supplies.  Do an ebay search for "Alps MD".  Looks like they're a few on there right now.  Anywhere from $220-$450.  The MD5000 is the one all the model decal gurus were using, but the MD-1000 and MD-1300 will do everything but the foils. 

Kind of wish I'd bought one now.  I'd be able to trade custom decals for parts...hmmm.

Brian

[frank_p]

Thanks Dave, but what do you mean by spray white through the mask?

Whats the mask?

The mask is an empty contour of the letter template made from an adhering material that there are cuts into it (bigger than the letters you are going to print your black letter on decal sheets).
This way when you apply the black letters decals, the letters are going to be outlined from the "outside" with white paint that is in fact underneath the black decals.

[hday]

They sell gold industrial pens, something like a sharpie, that you can draw with on the back of waterslides. I've seen a few examples in the picture thread. Basically you print an outline of your text/image, and then paint gold behind it. In theory, you could color behind your drawings and cut away the black so they're just gold. I guess you could also do white instead of gold. You'll have to play with the idea. Cutting around the waterslide might make clearcoating harder.

[davent]

Thanks Dave, but what do you mean by spray white through the mask?

Whats the mask?

The mask is an empty contour of the letter template made from an adhering material that there are cuts into it (bigger than the letters you are going to print your black letter on decal sheets).
This way when you apply the black letters decals, the letters are going to be outlined from the "outside" with white paint that is in fact underneath the black decals.

Exactly! The mask is just anything you can think of to use to prevent paint from going where you don't want it. I've used  tape (including masking tape), frisket film, liquid frisket, circle/oval  drawing templates, paper, cardboard, plastic film...etc. you get the idea. You can stick the mask to the object you're painting and get a nice crisp distinct boundary between your colours or you could float it above your work or lay it on top and this will give you a more diffuse boundary when you paint, the further the mask is from your work surface the softer the boundary, just depends on what effect you want.

For that black pedal I can't remember what i used for a mask, maybe overhead transparency  film, it was a long time ago and I'm always experimenting.  If I were doing it today i'd use frisket film (Curry's $2 for a 10x15" sheet), a low tack transparent film that you can easily move around and reposition/reuse.

Print out the decal art to a plain piece of paper draw the outline around the 'words'/(image).  Tape the paper copy to the frisket film on top of a cutting mat and cut along the outline of the 'words' with a new blade in your exacto knife to create  windows that you'll paint through. Peel the backing off the frisket and position the frisket on your enclosure so the window is where you want your decal to go, when happy with the postion stick it down. Now you can paint the white through the window. (I use an airbrush.)

I've got an oval drawing template (Curry's) i was going to use it to create light colour ovals below the knobs on a box then place the decal so the descriptor appeared within the oval. Easier and quicker then doing the outline/cutout thing.

A simple mask with tape. Just held a piece of card along the edge of the mask opening to create the hard inner white paint edge. A secondary mask if you will.

Used frisket film for this one.

See ya!
dave
PS. Chris, how were DBT?

[kurtlives]

Damn I still don't get it.

Mask off an area larger than the decal.
Spray white on the masked area.

I am confused what to do from here...I just cant wrap my head around this. Thanks for all the help Dave.


PS... Truckers were awesome they always put on a great show!

[davent]

Hi Chris,

Sorry ,my fault, I never finished, missed a paragraph. My daughter needed the computer in the middle of my reply and I got lost. (And I'm better at pictures then words.)

Ok, you've painted white  through the mask, let the paint dry then peel away the mask.  You're left with a number of white areas (for your decals) on the dark background. The decal requires a smooth glossy surface to adhere properly so you need to clearcoat and polish it all up again to get  it all smooth and glossy. Once you have the  surface prepped you just apply the decals as usual. Now instead of the black decal  lettering disappearing into the dark background they sit on the white (or contrasting colour) and are easily seen and read.

Hopefully that makes it a bit clearer. If not... ask away, I'll work on my explanation, I'll send pictures!

Take care
dave

[frank_p]

Damn I still don't get it.
Mask off an area larger than the decal.

No: mask AROUND. Or trim holes the shape of the big letter in your mask.  Spray white over the HOLES.

Spray white on the masked area.

Yes, spray over the masked area AND over the HOLES in the mask, at the same time.



Then pull out the mask (the masked area will be black: the color of the box) Where the trimmed holes were, now it's white on the box.

Where your mask had holes you are going to have some big letters in white.

Then, print on the decal (transparent sheet), to put the small black letters.

Place your transparent sheet/decal (with the black letter printed on it) over the big white letters  so the black letters will be in the white "outline" of it. In the center.  That way it will look like the black inside of the letter is comming from the box.

The inside of the letter will be black like the box.

Because in a mask you can't have "islands" of mask, because they would be detached.
Unless you do like this:



The colors were holes in the cardboard mask.

Oh you were faster than me Dave.
Man I am so tired, renovations and music practice. 

[kurtlives]

Hi Chris,

Sorry ,my fault, I never finished, missed a paragraph. My daughter needed the computer in the middle of my reply and I got lost. (And I'm better at pictures then words.)

Ok, you've painted white  through the mask, let the paint dry then peel away the mask.  You're left with a number of white areas (for your decals) on the dark background. The decal requires a smooth glossy surface to adhere properly so you need to clearcoat and polish it all up again to get  it all smooth and glossy. Once you have the  surface prepped you just apply the decals as usual. Now instead of the black decal  lettering disappearing into the dark background they sit on the white (or contrasting colour) and are easily seen and read.

Hopefully that makes it a bit clearer. If not... ask away, I'll work on my explanation, I'll send pictures!

Take care
dave

Ok but dosent this leave a square area or whatever shape of white aroud the decal?

[frank_p]

Ok but dosent this leave a square area or whatever shape of white aroud the decal?

No because you have to mask all the box or make an extension of the mask around the surface of the box. So as not to sparay anything else than the hole.   Nothing to do with the shape of the decal. This effect you describe would happen if your mask would be too small.

The mask and the decal are two complete different process except your holes in your mask is gonna be a bit larger than your printed black letters.

The decal is a transparent sheet. You could see a small line because of the limit of the sheet, nothing more.

The decal is applied after you have big white letters on the black box, without black inside at first after white spraying.

[mikemaddux]

From what I get it sounds like they are talking about a STENCIL in the shape of the letters you are trying to print.

Imagine a perfect outline.

[kurtlives]

O I think I get it... But isnt it pretty tough to cut those wee little decals out?

[davent]

Hello again,

I'll go through it with this more recent one step by step, I can still  remember what I did here.

Decal on contrasting patch.

Once the box was painted brown:

1. Printed off the decal, black face on clear decal film. Couple light coats of Canadian Tire lacquer over the decal.

2. Ripped off a piece of wide masking tape and stuck it to the cutting mat. Attached an Xacto knife to one leg of a compass and used it to cut a hole in the masking tape that was slightly larger then the outside ring of the face decal.

3. Stuck this masking tape mask to the box so the hole was where i wanted the decal to be. (Saved the round cutout, may need it later.) Covered up the rest of the box with tape and paper so only the hole was exposed for paint. I wanted a sharp crisp boundary between the yellow circle and the brown background so sprayed first with clearcoat (AutoAir Color Transparent Base). The clear fills any irregularities along the edge of the mask so you don't get the coloured paints seeping under the mask onto the brown background, the clear will already be there and filled up the seep channels. If the background were a simple solid colour you could use that paint instead of clear in this step.

4. Paint-  first opaque white to cover up the brown, dry. Next  transparent yellow, a few coats drying between coats. Kept applying yellow coats until I got a satisfactory colour. For paint I'm using AutoAir Colors (& an airbrush) so the drying between coats is a minute or two under a hot air gun.

5. Removed all the masking and started clear coating with lacquer. The freshly painted area is rough and is not going to take a decal plus the paint is watersoluble and needs to be protected. Put on enough  lacquer coats to be able to wet sand and polish to a glassy smooth surface.  I've found the smoother the surface the easier it is to make the decal edges invisible. For this lacquer I usually wait an hour between coats and go 6-7 coats before i start sanding back. I want the brown background and yellow circle level so the decal goes on smooth no dips or valleys to trap air, it takes many coats, then sanding back, spray/sandback, spray/sandback ...over and over. On the last pedal i painted it took more then two dozen coats of lacquer with sanding back to get the different painted areas level. (I'm trying something different next time.) Lacquer melts into itself so the multiple thin coats become essentially a single coat whereas with something like polyurethane the coats remain as layers and that can lead to finishing frustration (for me).

6. Now cut out the decal. You've got a perfect surface to apply it to so it really shouldn't matter whether the decal edge is inside the yellow circle or outside because once cleacoated the edge will be invisible but   i do try to cut it as close as possble and make it as small as I can. Cut the decal out with sharp scissors or a new Xacto blade,  I get better results with scissors, you don't want ragged edges on the decal!

7. Applied face decal over the yellow circle got it centered, sort of.  Got any airbubbles out and dab up excess liquid with a damp paper towel. I paint a setting solution on the box before applying the decal and brush more on periodically over the next couple hours and this helps blend the decal edge in.

8. Once the decal is dry, 24 hours or so, couple coats of lacquer to protect the face. When lacquer was dry used i circle drawing template, with a hole smaller then the yellow circle, as a mask and airbrushed  the shadow on the face, wanted a soft edge on the shadow so just held the mask in place above the box . Took the mask away and did the shadow under the circle to try to give it a 3D effect (stuck the circle cutout trom step 3 over the face to protect it from paint) . This painting usually takes me a few attempts but in using this paint on lacquer you just wipe it away with a wet paper towel and try again.

9. Now it's just a matter of multiple coats of clear lacque rand wet sanding back, over and over until everything is level... again.

I'm sure there are other ways and easier ways to get from A to B but I always seem to end up with a long torturous route, hey it helps to builds character... or characters.

Love the smell of lacquer in the morning, it's the smell of...    major headache and vomitting the morning aft.
Enough, I've got  sanding to do, bye,
dave