Finished the new BYOC analog delay (demo included)

[Mark Hammer]

It is pretty much impossible to design a PCB, with that many thru-hole components, that can accommodate a wide array of commercially available chassis.  I suppose one might be able to adopt a different layout with use of ultra-small caps and 1/8W resistors, but that is counter-balanced by a bunch of mitigating factors.

I think for a lot of folks, there is no finer tech-support for DIY building than the benchmark set by PAiA.  But then the number of folks buying diy fuzzboxes is substantially greater than the number of folks buying or even attempting diy synths, so PAiA always had the advantage of small-ish numbers working in its favour.  The key to managing customer support in those instances is producing a thorough building-instruction pamphlet that anticipates novices, and BYOC seems to have that covered.  If anything, the advent of being able to insert actual hi-res colour photos makes their manuals even better in some ways than the circa-1980 ones from PAiA.

[Unbeliever]

As for the PCB design, I'd look at it this way: does it work? Yes.

You're missing the point. Good PCB design is a one-off investment that pays off each time the PCB is used. It's an obvious target for increasing ease of assembly. Do you really think having the electrolytics oriented every which way is good for a beginner or intermediate builder? BYOC would be saving builders and themselves hassles with a better layout.

For all the plaintiffs, I'd suggest you undertake project to design a semi-original 1 second analog delay, design a two layer PCB that lacks all the BYOC "critical mistakes", then make it available to the building public for low cost. Other than that, its just armchair commerce.

2-layer PCB design isn't hard - it's just a matter of putting the effort in. It's misleading to state that unless someone designs and supplies kits themselves, they can't comment.

As for support, check out the byoc forums. There is a lot of guys, including Keith from BYOC who support the products every day of the week. Check out the analog delay threads and you'll see the level of detail in information supporting the kit.

If you are selling kits to someone then there should be some basic amount of support GUARANTEED, or you make it very clear - up front - that there is no guaranteed support. Having a disclaimer in the documentation stating that purchase of the kit doesn't entitle you to any tech support, and then fobbing the purchaser off onto a community-based forum is a bit poor. Charge $10 or $20 more per kit, and put that money into having some dedicated support time.

[dano12]

You're missing the point. Good PCB design is a one-off investment that pays off each time the PCB is used. It's an obvious target for increasing ease of assembly. Do you really think having the electrolytics oriented every which way is good for a beginner or intermediate builder? BYOC would be saving builders and themselves hassles with a better layout.

Electros are clearly labeled on the board. I would that think finding the big + hole is the least of builders problems. That is a nitpick.

2-layer PCB design isn't hard - it's just a matter of putting the effort in. It's misleading to state that unless someone designs and supplies kits themselves, they can't comment.

It is misleading to find "errors" in others work that really aren't errors at all.

If you are selling kits to someone then there should be some basic amount of support GUARANTEED, or you make it very clear - up front - that there is no guaranteed support. Having a disclaimer in the documentation stating that purchase of the kit doesn't entitle you to any tech support, and then fobbing the purchaser off onto a community-based forum is a bit poor. Charge $10 or $20 more per kit, and put that money into having some dedicated support time.

According to who? Name me a single stompbox kit manufacturer who guarantees support?

I think we should just agree to disagree and move on.

[DougH]

You really have a wonderful clean tone there and great playing technique.

Analog delays sure are fun!

[Filament]

As for the PCB design, I'd look at it this way: does it work? Yes.

You're missing the point. Good PCB design is a one-off investment that pays off each time the PCB is used. It's an obvious target for increasing ease of assembly. Do you really think having the electrolytics oriented every which way is good for a beginner or intermediate builder? BYOC would be saving builders and themselves hassles with a better layout.

For all the plaintiffs, I'd suggest you undertake project to design a semi-original 1 second analog delay, design a two layer PCB that lacks all the BYOC "critical mistakes", then make it available to the building public for low cost. Other than that, its just armchair commerce.

2-layer PCB design isn't hard - it's just a matter of putting the effort in. It's misleading to state that unless someone designs and supplies kits themselves, they can't comment.

As for support, check out the byoc forums. There is a lot of guys, including Keith from BYOC who support the products every day of the week. Check out the analog delay threads and you'll see the level of detail in information supporting the kit.

If you are selling kits to someone then there should be some basic amount of support GUARANTEED, or you make it very clear - up front - that there is no guaranteed support. Having a disclaimer in the documentation stating that purchase of the kit doesn't entitle you to any tech support, and then fobbing the purchaser off onto a community-based forum is a bit poor. Charge $10 or $20 more per kit, and put that money into having some dedicated support time.

I'm going to get myself banned here but what the hell.  Unbeliever you and the other cork sniffing elitist like you (including R.G.) can officially kiss my ass.  I consider Keith to be a personal friend and I won't let you or anyone else besmirch him or his company.  It's pricks like you that turn people off to this hobby.  Keith runs his entire outfit with just 3 people, he designs good kits and prices them reasonably, allows people to take the first tentative steps on the road to a new hobby and has always answered my questions quickly. 

Since so many here seem content to run to Steve's aid given he's "just a little guy" you'd think Keith would be afforded the same latitude.  Guess not.

Screw the lot of you....close my @#$%ing account. 

[Nitefly182]

As for the PCB design, I'd look at it this way: does it work? Yes.

You're missing the point. Good PCB design is a one-off investment that pays off each time the PCB is used. It's an obvious target for increasing ease of assembly. Do you really think having the electrolytics oriented every which way is good for a beginner or intermediate builder? BYOC would be saving builders and themselves hassles with a better layout.

For all the plaintiffs, I'd suggest you undertake project to design a semi-original 1 second analog delay, design a two layer PCB that lacks all the BYOC "critical mistakes", then make it available to the building public for low cost. Other than that, its just armchair commerce.

2-layer PCB design isn't hard - it's just a matter of putting the effort in. It's misleading to state that unless someone designs and supplies kits themselves, they can't comment.

As for support, check out the byoc forums. There is a lot of guys, including Keith from BYOC who support the products every day of the week. Check out the analog delay threads and you'll see the level of detail in information supporting the kit.

If you are selling kits to someone then there should be some basic amount of support GUARANTEED, or you make it very clear - up front - that there is no guaranteed support. Having a disclaimer in the documentation stating that purchase of the kit doesn't entitle you to any tech support, and then fobbing the purchaser off onto a community-based forum is a bit poor. Charge $10 or $20 more per kit, and put that money into having some dedicated support time.

It is extraordinarily easy to post on the internet that someone's product is poorly executed in any way. On the other hand, it must be very very difficult to actually do a better job or one of the people in this thread with seemingly infinite PCB design wisdom would put up a better design.

As far as electros are concerned, any experienced builder that expects to blindly put in parts without looking at the board before inserting components is probably due for a lot more problems than a mis-oriented cap. I should at least hope they pay attention when they are prodding around with a 7-800 degree metal iron.

[kurtlives]

As for the PCB design, I'd look at it this way: does it work? Yes.

You're missing the point. Good PCB design is a one-off investment that pays off each time the PCB is used. It's an obvious target for increasing ease of assembly. Do you really think having the electrolytics oriented every which way is good for a beginner or intermediate builder? BYOC would be saving builders and themselves hassles with a better layout.

For all the plaintiffs, I'd suggest you undertake project to design a semi-original 1 second analog delay, design a two layer PCB that lacks all the BYOC "critical mistakes", then make it available to the building public for low cost. Other than that, its just armchair commerce.

2-layer PCB design isn't hard - it's just a matter of putting the effort in. It's misleading to state that unless someone designs and supplies kits themselves, they can't comment.

As for support, check out the byoc forums. There is a lot of guys, including Keith from BYOC who support the products every day of the week. Check out the analog delay threads and you'll see the level of detail in information supporting the kit.

If you are selling kits to someone then there should be some basic amount of support GUARANTEED, or you make it very clear - up front - that there is no guaranteed support. Having a disclaimer in the documentation stating that purchase of the kit doesn't entitle you to any tech support, and then fobbing the purchaser off onto a community-based forum is a bit poor. Charge $10 or $20 more per kit, and put that money into having some dedicated support time.

I'm going to get myself banned here but what the hell.  Unbeliever you and the other cork sniffing elitist like you (including R.G.) can officially kiss my ass.  I consider Keith to be a personal friend and I won't let you or anyone else besmirch him or his company.  It's pricks like you that turn people off to this hobby.  Keith runs his entire outfit with just 3 people, he designs good kits and prices them reasonably, allows people to take the first tentative steps on the road to a new hobby and has always answered my questions quickly. 

Since so many here seem content to run to Steve's aid given he's "just a little guy" you'd think Keith would be afforded the same latitude.  Guess not.

Screw the lot of you....close my @#$%ing account. 

...

[DougH]

I just read through this thread and...wow...

I don't remember where all the byoc-hating came from. I think in the beginning there was some suspicion of impropriety on their part as to where they got their schematics but in all honesty I don't remember... Then there's the whole thing about how every once in a while some hapless kit builder wanders into our little corner of the world for some help- which raises all kinds of "harumphs" with regards to where they get their support yada yada... (And I'll admit I was part of that at one time.)

But in all truth, I could care less any more...

There's a few things people around here need to get used to:

1. There are going to be more and more kit enterprises springing up out there and they're not all gonna come from here.

2. Yes, there are large numbers of kit builders out there that don't know anything about how fx work. There are also large numbers of paint-by-number builders here who just use layouts, never look at a schematic, and don't know anything about how fx work. So what's the problem? There has never been a prerequisite that you have to learn in order to build something and have fun.

3. No one's curing cancer here- You guys who think byoc didn't get quite enough angels on the head of a pin with their pcb layout need to get over yourself. I haven't seen a commercial or otherwise pedal or amp pcb yet that would make it as a piece of a space launch ground system or flight hardware. And that's the "good/bad" hardware criteria I work around every day. This is just a toy for a musician that is going to sit on a pedalboard, get stomped on a little and maybe get a beer spilled on it- child's play in the world of electronics. No, the pcb is far from perfect but they will learn as they go along what works and what doesn't like everyone does. PCB design is an art/science in and of itself and finding a good PCB designer is not necessarily easy. Those guys can be rare... So before we get all uppity about their apparent lack of PCB design skills  perhaps we should revisit some Fender amp layouts and discuss how they would have been lambasted if the internet existed in the 50's. Then we'll talk about what really matters and what doesn't...

The bottom line is this guy built a really nice sounding pedal and produced a very pleasant video of it. That should be good enough...

[dano12]

I guess I may have come on a bit strong here. If so, apologies. I have no desire to rock the boat, but I do like to put in my 2 cents for things I believe in.

And yes, I am only now actually finishing my delay 

[Bucky Weaver]

Like Filament, consider my account closed.

I only have a few post here because of stuff like this. Its a shame you guys don't know what people like Keith and the staff at BYOC do for the community. Your negative attitudes turn of people from the hobby. Real shame.

And any of you guys who talk badly about the BYOC forums, why don't you stay away and have your buddies HERE help you?
You state that BYOCers come here for answers when the BYOC forum doesn't help, but I have seen some of you over there recently asking for help and info.

You know who you are........

See Ya'

[dano12]

jeez, before anyone else bails, how about a nice cold beer?

I think I'll have one myself. Can I get one for anybody while I'm up?

[Nitefly182]

Wow. I build a delay and this forum self-destructs.

[BDuguay]

Yeah, I hope you're proud of yourself!(nice playing BTW. I forgot to mention that earlier)
And yes Dano, I would like a beer too please.
B.

[wader2k]

With all this talk of "hidden" design flaws, horrible PCB design, and non-existent customer service, it's pretty clear we've created quite a nice witch hunt here.

I'm still waiting to hear about the design flaws.

As for the PCB design, I'd look at it this way: does it work? Yes. Does it sound great? Yes. Can an intermediate builder make one? Yes. Does it have board mounted pots and switches for easy assembly? Yes. For all the plaintiffs, I'd suggest you undertake project to design a semi-original 1 second analog delay, design a two layer PCB that lacks all the BYOC "critical mistakes", then make it available to the building public for low cost. Other than that, its just armchair commerce.

As for support, check out the byoc forums. There is a lot of guys, including Keith from BYOC who support the products every day of the week. Check out the analog delay threads and you'll see the level of detail in information supporting the kit.

I concur!!

edit....just finished reading the rest of this.

Wow......

No I'm not wanting my account closed! I'm a little new to this scene, but not new to electronics. I have a BSEET and 25 years in systems work. I think the BYOC folks are a great starting place for some, although the price is more than I'd like to pay when I can source for much cheaper personally. Still, they have to make a buck. GGG seems cheaper, but they lack a forum( I will say that the email support seemed timely and decent). I have bookmarked some 20 odd forums/sites that are full of info and help for the DIY neophyte. But, everywhere, I see this undercurrent of bad vibes that I can't quite understand. Some of it is directed at neophytes, some against booteekers, some against all DIY'ers, some against anybody and everybody......most of it is just seems juvenile.  Sorry if that offends. It's just that I don't quite understand the purpose/mission of sites such as this if it isn't for folks to come and learn...no matter their present skill level. We are all new at some point. Now I'm rambling....

Anyway....what got me was the comment about electros being oriented in all directions on a pc bd....and resistors not being lined up in 1 direction....for crying out loud....I have worked in industry for 25 years and have never heard this level of condescension over what is a pretty decent design....and I'm working on 2-3 million dollar MRI scanners for the medical industry.....here we're talking about a $100 guitar pedal.

Aron...if these comments are out of line I apologize and will remove.....I know I am new, but I usually don't like to rant like this and I do enjoy this board and I would like to contribute in a more positive manner.

[aron]

What is going on here? Come on guys! Consider this thread locked.