Why not use 3.5mm Jacks?

[nelson]

So, I'm trying to build these teeny tiny pedals they are in enclosures 50x50x31mm. It's possible to use 6.35mm jack sockets if I sand off a couple of mm of the plastic jack tip cover on neutrik plastic pcb mount jacks. However, that's a hassle.

I'm left with much more room if I just use 3.5mm jacks. It's not a problem to use a 3.5mm to 6.35mm lead to connect them in a pedal board set up.


Why do we limit ourseles to 6.35mm jacks?

Is it cheating to use 3.5mm jacks? 

Would you use a pedal with them?

Is this a convention that's best kept?

[Taylor]

It's just a matter of conforming to a standard. Commercial builders use 1/4" jacks so customers don't have to use adapters.

As DIYers, we can do whatever we want. My modular effects case uses 3.5mm jacks and it works great. The jacks and patch cords are way cheaper and obviously take up less panel space. Several modular synth companies use this size as standard.

If these are for your own use, I would definitely go for the smaller jacks. If you intend to sell them, you might turn off prospective customers. People get very irritated by irregularities in their pedalboards, for some reason.

[The Tone God]

Why do we limit ourseles to 6.35mm jacks?

There needs to be a standard otherwise everyone ends up with a collection of weirdo cables. This is another physical format war. Eventually something has to become a "standard" (i.e. tape vs. 8 track, MD vs. CD, Blu-Ray vs. HD, etc.) 6.35mm just happened to win. I would say one of the contributing factors to it winning was that it could take a fair amount of abuse. Ever step on a 3.5mm connector ? Snap! It was also cheap and in heavy use already.

Is it cheating to use 3.5mm jacks?

Would you use a pedal with them?

Didn't know this was a contest but I say if you are keeping this within your own "world" or system then do whatever you want. Thats one of the major joys of DIY.

Is this a convention that's best kept?

There is a "standard" and it is the 6.35mm. If you want to play with others then you will have to make the adaption. You can't expect others to adapt to you especially if they do not have the resource to make the change. I still don't own any HD DVD player.

Andrew

[Mark Hammer]

I use the mini-jacks for my modular unit too, and so do a great many modular analog synths.  But these are units which are assumed to be sitting on table-tops or otherwise "stable".  The assumption underlying 1/4" phone plugs is that they will have to stand up to a great deal of abuse, and under those circumstances, a 1/4" diameter holds up better than a 1/8" diameter.  Keep in mind that before solid-state switching systems, phone operators would rapidly plug and unplug cables with those plugs on the end in order to route calls.  That is, after all, why they are called "phone plugs".  Now, I fully realize that a fully patched and secured pedalboard is every bit as stable as a modular synth, but people selling you a single pedal don't know that and can't assume that every pedal they sell is fully secured and protected from plug breakage.  Nor can people selling you guitars.  So they adopt a standard, as Andrew noted, that will be good enough for the most commonly anticipated stressors.  As much as I like them, the smaller plugs just ain't up to that risk.  I'll use them on my modular (and I'm glad to because they are cheap and free up wads of space), but I would not use them for single pedals.

[nelson]

Is this a convention that's best kept?

There is a "standard" and it is the 6.35mm. If you want to play with others then you will have to make the adaption. You can't expect others to adapt to you especially if they do not have the resource to make the change. I still don't own any HD DVD player.

Andrew
[/quote]



See, I don't think it's quite the same, although there are parallels to be drawn. I do think that say, selling a pedal but including 3.5mm to 6.35mm connectors with it, isn't the same as say an entirely new video format. For a start you need entirely different hardware to utilise the technology. For my purposes a more accurate comparison is a bridge technology that allows hooking it up to your old dvd player. The audio world already has 1001 different connectors. I don't think people will be pushed to understand the concept. I also know I'm not hard pushed to deal with the multitude of online video codecs. I think standard wars are more about business competition and pursuing monopoly than about any perceived benefits of the technology. You only need to look at the superior bitamax losing out to VHS to see that. VHS took a loss on the technology and priced bitamax out of the market.  

I think  I could sell teeny tiny pedals with 3.5mm jacks. It's not as if I need them to be a huge commercial success, just fuel cashflow for new ideas. Which is all I'm really doing this for, to stop my brain from going to mush staring at spreadsheets all day and limit the financial black hole that is this hobby. Plus, it's a challenge to see how much functionality I can fit in these teeny boxes.

I bought some neutrik metal right angle 3.5mm jacks, they're as solid as the 6.35mm. Stand on any jack raised off the ground at the right angle and with enough force, it's going to at least bend and become un-useable as it detaches internally. At least with smaller jacks it's a far smaller target for your foot and they are far less likely to get stood on.

I think if I offer something unique people will put up with the minor inconvenience of 3.5mm jack sockets.

I know I won't mind them. But then again, I'm a very unusual sample of one.

I could be totally underestimating the importance of 6.35mm jacks.

[The Tone God]

I think if I offer something unique people will put up with the minor inconvenience of 3.5mm jack sockets.

I could be totally underestimating the importance of 6.35mm jacks.

I think you are underestimating things. What you perceive as a "minor inconvenience" is enough to turn people right off. Just look at power plugs. Some older pedals used the 3.5mm power plug instead of the barrel connector but they don't now. Forced by the adoption of the barrel connector even though the 3.5mm power plug was a better system. Even look at the polarity issue with barrel connectors. Once you break the common "standard" you get into trouble. Read the reviews of people who complain about these little things. "Pedal does not accept "Boss" style power adaptor." Attempting to use a new connector is just going to alienate people.

Also take this into account. If you are running a biz selling these things with non standard connectors you are going to have to support the system meaning send out replacement connectors whenever someone losses or breaks theirs.

There have been better technologies availible for decades but generally the only time an old establish standard is left behind is when a new emerging technology comes along that the old standard cannot support like with tape being replaced by CDs. There were DCCs but CDs still won. Unless there is some change in the way we transmit our analog signals the standard will be the 6.35mm. You are fighting against 50+ years. I don't think you will be able to change that. Yeah it sucks. I know.

Andrew

[Taylor]

I agree. I honestly think most people with pedalboards would be turned off by this. The 1/4"-1/8" adapter adds bulk on the outside, and folks are extremely miserly about pedalboard space these days, and as Andrew says, any minor break from the standard makes a lot of people just not interested. If they were making a pedalboard of just your mini-effects, they might be more into it. But trying to interface things that don't just plug-and-play is too much work for a lot of musicians, sadly.

[nelson]

I think if I offer something unique people will put up with the minor inconvenience of 3.5mm jack sockets.

I could be totally underestimating the importance of 6.35mm jacks.

I think you are underestimating things. What you perceive as a "minor inconvenience" is enough to turn people right off. Just look at power plugs. Some older pedals used the 3.5mm power plug instead of the barrel connector but they don't now. Forced by the adoption of the barrel connector even though the 3.5mm power plug was a better system. Even look at the polarity issue with barrel connectors. Once you break the common "standard" you get into trouble. Read the reviews of people who complain about these little things. "Pedal does not accept "Boss" style power adaptor." Attempting to use a new connector is just going to alienate people.

Also take this into account. If you are running a biz selling these things with non standard connectors you are going to have to support the system meaning send out replacement connectors whenever someone losses or breaks theirs.

There have been better technologies availible for decades but generally the only time an old establish standard is left behind is when a new emerging technology comes along that the old standard cannot support like with tape being replaced by CDs. There were DCCs but CDs still won. Unless there is some change in the way we transmit our analog signals the standard will be the 6.35mm. You are fighting against 50+ years. I don't think you will be able to change that. Yeah it sucks. I know.

Andrew

You make a really convincing argument. On the surface of it, it seems like such an innocuous change. However, I do tend to view people as less conservative than they perhaps are.

I'd only need an extra 5mm in each dimension of the enclosure to have the bare minimum of board real estate I need for 6.35mm jacks.

I don't suppose anyone knows of any suitable mass manufactured 55x55x55mm enclosures?

They'd be nice and cubed.

[nelson]

I agree. I honestly think most people with pedalboards would be turned off by this. The 1/4"-1/8" adapter adds bulk on the outside, and folks are extremely miserly about pedalboard space these days, and as Andrew says, any minor break from the standard makes a lot of people just not interested. If they were making a pedalboard of just your mini-effects, they might be more into it. But trying to interface things that don't just plug-and-play is too much work for a lot of musicians, sadly.

It wouldn't be an adapter, it would be a 3.5mm jack to 6.35mm jack cable. I decided against the adapter for the reason of added bulk.

[Taylor]

Have you thought about putting the jacks on the face of the effect? Takes up the same internal volume, but sometimes shifting that volume in some other dimension works better.

I just looked at Mouser to find a box in those dimensions, and couldn't find one (the search allows you to narrow down boxes within the dimensions you're looking for). But I bet Mic Farlow could bend some up for you...

[waky]

well, as a matter of fact ive used 3.5mm jacks in some builds because i cant find 6.3mm jacks, they are definitively weaker. Of course this depends alot on the jack you use (usually those box-shaped stereo jacks with the clear plastic top brake after a few uses), the mono ones that are like miniature versions of the 6.3 used in most stompboxes on the other hand, are much more prone to survive abuse.   On the plug side probly every single one will brake if u step on them... so dont.

as the tone god said, if the pedals are for yourself alone go for it!, otherwise is probably better to stay with the standard since most people will give up at the mere sight of the small jack 

[R.G.]

If you're tossing away standards, get rid of
- the unbuffered guitar pickup; an onboard buffer kills any tone sucking or cable loading
- the single-ended guitar amp input; use of a full duotriode in diffamp mode to get some common mode hum rejection instead of half a triode with no common mode rejection at all.
- cords; bluetooth your guitar
- copper; use an optical sensor for string vibration. Might as well do this in two dimensions instead of one while you're at it. Or use optical fiber for strings and sense vibration by the variation of light intensity caused by variable scattering as the vibrations bend the fiber (Oh! that one's patented!)

These are just a few to get started on.

[Lurco]

If you're tossing away standards, get rid of
- the unbuffered guitar pickup; an onboard buffer kills any tone sucking or cable loading
- the single-ended guitar amp input; use of a full duotriode in diffamp mode to get some common mode hum rejection instead of half a triode with no common mode rejection at all.
- cords; bluetooth your guitar
- copper; use an optical sensor for string vibration. Might as well do this in two dimensions instead of one while you're at it. Or use optical fiber for strings and sense vibration by the variation of light intensity caused by variable scattering as the vibrations bend the fiber (Oh! that one's patented!)

These are just a few to get started on.

+ reverse the Boss-"standard" powersupply pin negative to shaft negative!

[Paul Marossy]

I have had a few pedals that take a 1/8" power cord, looks just like a 1/8" headphone jack. I consider these a real hassle because I have to fabricate an adapter that allows me to use the standard 5.5/2.1mm daisy chain cord with these pedals. It would be the same story with a 3.5mm jack, I would be annoyed by it.

[aron]

It's pretty amazing how conservative guitarists can be. I agree as well, that they might be turned off by the jack - BUT - more importantly, how are you going to convince them that the jack is not screwing up their tone because it's too small! (semi-kidding but really..... maybe not!)

[Taylor]

If you're tossing away standards, get rid of
- the unbuffered guitar pickup; an onboard buffer kills any tone sucking or cable loading
- the single-ended guitar amp input; use of a full duotriode in diffamp mode to get some common mode hum rejection instead of half a triode with no common mode rejection at all.
- cords; bluetooth your guitar
- copper; use an optical sensor for string vibration. Might as well do this in two dimensions instead of one while you're at it. Or use optical fiber for strings and sense vibration by the variation of light intensity caused by variable scattering as the vibrations bend the fiber (Oh! that one's patented!)

These are just a few to get started on.

Interestingly enough, bass players have already done a lot of this. (active electronics are the norm; wireless systems are very common even for bar players; Lightwave pickups, though not particularly common, are being used by regular Joes). Bass players seem to be much more open to new technologies than guitarists, especially in the realm of amplification.

[sean k]

When I was thinking about producing pedals a few years ago I thought seriously about having RCA chassis sockets sitting on the bottom of my pedals so that the whole pedal could be mounted on a pedal board by just plugging it in. That made me think that RCA's might be a better option because it's so much easier to make up the male cables and the female sockets take up so little space on the pedal body.

So if you've got a pedal board set up with all RCA's all you'd need is an in/out panel for the 6.35's.

Haven't done it though.

[Paul Marossy]

When I was thinking about producing pedals a few years ago I thought seriously about having RCA chassis sockets sitting on the bottom of my pedals so that the whole pedal could be mounted on a pedal board by just plugging it in. That made me think that RCA's might be a better option because it's so much easier to make up the male cables and the female sockets take up so little space on the pedal body.

So if you've got a pedal board set up with all RCA's all you'd need is an in/out panel for the 6.35's.

Haven't done it though.

That's a clever idea.