[REQUEST] BOSS PH-2 SUPER PHASER SCHEMATIC

[ulysses]

hey guys

can someone help me out with a boss ph-2 super phaser schematic

ive got one and it sounds like crap - ive had some luck modding it but would love to get a schem to open the potential right up.

ive seen it on a site called ronsound - but dont feel like getting scammed

cheers
ulysses

[Mark Hammer]

While it can seem like a lot to pay, places that have gone to the trouble of seeking out and collecting service notes and schematics provide a valuable service.  You should note that not everyone has, either by affiliation with this place or with other musicians/techies, easy and free access to every schematic ever printed.  A place that strives to be able to provide critical technical information for everything (and that includes products very few people ask about) is to be applauded.  In many cases, the "free" schematics we are accustomed to here are due to someone somewhere spending the money to get a document from one of these places and then scanning it.  The place they got it from, meanwhile, has spent money to get a paper copy from somewhere.

Given how widespread certain schematics have become, I'll agree with you that it makes little sense to have to pay $10 for a schematic for something like an MXR Distortion+.  On the other hand, people who provide this service usually do it in addition to their other principal business lines and don't have tons of time to spend scouring the net to see which schems they can still justifiably ask money for, and updating their websites accordingly.  They virtually always ask a set flat fee, regardless of the number of pages, because adjusting the fee is virtually impossible to do in a manner that makes people happy.  I suspect there would be fewer complaints with a flat fee of $10 for anything from 1 to 25 pages, than there would be for a buck a page plus $6 postage.  Could you see paying $6 postage on a single page and being happy about it?  That being said, when there is the appearance of virtually everything being available for free on the net (and we have things like "The Free Information Society"), I fully understand how people find the experience of being asked for money a little jarring.  It feels a bit like your mom suddenly charging you for hugs. But, but, but.....

We should, however, clearly differentiate between legitimate tech information services that make a point of acquiring obscure technical materials, and to my mind uscrupulous people peddling CDs of freely-posted (and often protected) materials on e-bay.  To many people, a schem is just a schem, and its provenance is largely immaterial.  There ARE, however, more and less legitimate ways of providing and obtaning them.

Ron's a decent guy (VERY patient, I might add ), and I'm pretty confident he doesn't get rich off the PH-2 schematic.  Hell, he may well never make back the money he had to pay somebody else to get it.  Having said all of THAT, I have it posted on my photobucket site.  I don't have the URL link at the moment.  I'll get it and post it later today.

Note that the IR3109 chips in there are super-duper rare, and if you fry one there is no substitute.  People who own older (easrly 80's) Roland synths are constantly scouring the globe for them because once a chip goes their beloved synth goes.

[ulysses]

hey mark

i appreciate you posting it on your photobucket site if you could let me know the address i would appreciate it.

i should clarify that when i said i dont feel like getting scammed what i meant was - i dont feel like transfering money to a paypal account and never seing the schem

i have heard rumors on various forums that places like schematic connection are dodgy - you pay via paypal and then you never hear from the guy..

i searched the net for a while and couldnt find it anyware - so i have to ask - does anyone really have one or has this guy just made a list of all schems that are not available and said you can buy it for 5 bucks - just pay now..

re postage - a pdf of jpg is fine - i dont need a printed copy - and in this day and age i dotn really see the need to physically post something - so it just adds to the "dodgyness" factor.

re the rare parts - i do actually own a ph-2 so i am modding one i already own. its a 12 stage phaser as far as i am aware so building one from scratch prob isnt worth the trouble anyway when they are available on ebay for $40..

i appreciate the reply mark.

cheers
ulysses

edit: typo

[Mark Hammer]

Here you go, guy.  This oughta put some twinkle in your eye: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/mhammer/PH-2_2.png   

And for comparison purposes, here is the table-top RPH-10, a close cousin: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/mhammer/rph10-a.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/mhammer/rph10-b.gif

Note a few things about the PH-2:
1) It is OTA-based, like the Small Stone, later Ross, DOD FX20, Moog Stage Phaser, and Moogerfooger.  This provides the potential for superior stage matching, but it also puts the circuit at risk for distortion since OTAs don't handle large signals well all the time.  The IR3109 was essentially Roland's take on the old SSM2040, also a dedicated quad-OTA. 
2) To cope with the possibility of distortion, and especially with cumulative noise from so many stages run at such low amplitudes, the PH-2 uses an NE571 compander chip.  Not that many phasers use them.  This is one that does.  It  can be replaced with an NE/SA570 for a slight bump up in noise specs.
3) Like the MXR Phase 100 and some other commercial phasers with more than 4 stages, not all the phase shift stages are swept.  The two IC6 dual op-amps (one of which has the wrong number in the schematic and is presumably IC3) are each fixed (i.e., unswept) allpass/phase-shift stages.  As in the Phase 100, these add to the cumulative phase shift and result in more notches even though they aren't swept.  When you switch from 6 to 12 stages, you're getting 4+2 (swept/unswept) and 8+4 (swept/unswept).
4) Because of the switching requirements for going between 6 and 12 stages, a CD4053 CMOS switch chip is used.  Though you should obviously be careful about the IR3109, given how irreplaceable they are, maybe be a little more attentive to the CD4053 since it is the more static sensitive chip on board.

i should clarify that when i said i dont feel like getting scammed what i meant was - i dont feel like transfering money to a paypal account and never seing the schem

i have heard rumors on various forums that places like schematic connection are dodgy - you pay via paypal and then you never hear from the guy..

i searched the net for a while and couldnt find it anyware - so i have to ask - does anyone really have one or has this guy just made a list of all schems that are not available and said you can buy it for 5 bucks - just pay now..

re postage - a pdf of jpg is fine - i dont need a printed copy - and in this day and age i don't really see the need to physically post something - so it just adds to the "dodgyness" factor.

Again, nobody makes a living out of providing schematics, no matter how much they charge for it.  If you've ever been to Mark Glinsky's site (http://www.markglinsky.com/ManualManor.html) or Candisc/Ranger (http://www.candisc.com/ranger/), you'll be tempted to mutter to yourself "Who in their right minds would want this stuff?" as you scroll along.  And you'd be more or less right.  Much of the accumulated paper will sit unused for very long periods of time.  Do any of these folks have the time to scan everything?  No.  Do they have the time or support to get all of it organized so that it is available at their fingertips?  No.  Do they have enough time on their hands to be able to make note of or respond to every e-mail promptly?  No.  Basically, you're dealing with one-man operations that are well-intentioned, and honest, but maybe not well-organized enough 100% of the time that every request that comes in instantly turns into someone swinging their swivel chair around, sliding down the row of filing cabinets, and pulling out the drawer that says "Rheem to Roland", and slipping one of the many copies in the file folder into a pre-stamped envelope.

I don't want to keep harping on it, but Steve Daniels is as honest as the day is long...probably moreso.  Before he was able to launch Small Bear as his primary source of income, with someone else to help him fill orders, he was doing it on top of his day job, on his own, out of his apartment, with the scowl, eye roll, and occasional hug from his lovely wife Judy.  It was VERY draining on him, but he managed to get past the hump where the degree of organization and speedy response people thought they were going to get when they looked at the website was finally able to become something of a reality.  And even though he is much better organized these days and has hired help, all it takes is a flu bug to really screw things up for a while.

And there is the nub of it.  It takes almost nothing to type up a list of documents you have lying around somewhere and post them in the barest of html coding over top of a background graphic with a contact number/address.  It takes one whole helluva lot more to be as sustainably organized as any of those big distributors with dedicated phone staff and accountants, and my sense is that a lot of the "manual gatherers" out there have a wee bit of the Simpsons "comic book store guy" in them ("Worst mono synth...ever"), trying to turn their love of technology into something sort of like a business.  One needs to scale back expectations when dealing with them, because they WILL fall behind in responding, will print requests out and lose it under a pile of paper somewhere, and will fall WAY behind if they catch a cold and Bob the imaginary invisible 24hr assistant decides to go surfing that week.  It happens and is as fundamental a part of doing business via the web as finding out that the 23 year blonde you thought you've been corresponding with is really is really more like Mrs. Hufnagel from St. Elsewhere.

We had a guy here in Ottawa, who had a "store" (i.e., semi-condemned rickety old house with a sign in the front) with an amazing collection of obscure gear.  Just about all of it was inaccessible, tucked away behind stuff, generally covered in dust, and not priced appropriately or competitively or even visibly.  The guy himself, while pleasant enough, was a bit of a nutbar who didn't really seem to know a lot about what he had (hence the weird pricing) except that it was obscure.  He could have actually made money but was not a businessman and appeared to simply love being around gear.  Naturally, he went belly up, though we don't seem to know where all the gear went to after he closed.  Again, honest as the day is long, but shopping there was draining because it was so disorganized.  However, at least you knew it when you walked in.  I'm not trying to cast aspersions on any of the folks peddling schems, but one should keep in mind that many of these folks can be of similar ilk: great folks, honest and happy to do favours for you, but not in a position to always follow through as efficiently as you'd like.  In this day and age, that's simply one of the things we have to expect and accept.

Hoep you can get the pedal up and running.  That puppy is just about as packed as the DC-2 is.

[zarathustra]

i have heard rumors on various forums that places like schematic connection are dodgy - you pay via paypal and then you never hear from the guy..

i searched the net for a while and couldnt find it anyware - so i have to ask - does anyone really have one or has this guy just made a list of all schems that are not available and said you can buy it for 5 bucks - just pay now..

re postage - a pdf of jpg is fine - i dont need a printed copy - and in this day and age i dotn really see the need to physically post something - so it just adds to the "dodgyness" factor.

For what it's worth, I've had positive transactions with ronsound. I needed a particular schematic that was impossible to find, and he had it. He was very descriptive of the schematic's condition, and he emailed it to me (as a pdf) within minutes of receiving my PayPal payment.

I still think it's a bit odd to charge money for someone else's intellectual property, but, on the other hand, I'm sure he spends more than $5 worth of energy tracking these things down. I'm not sure there's an easy resolution to that dilemma. Anyway, like I said, he seems like a very decent fellow and fully trustworthy.

[rocket]

Every bookstore is making money with somebody else's intellectual property.

[theehman]

I appreciate the comments you guys have made concerning my schematic sales at RonSound.  The issue of charging for a schematic has been at debate for several years now and I have been flamed at least once in newsgroups as a result.   I look at it as I go to the trouble to find these schematics and keep them on hand, scan them in, clean them up as much as possible in Paint Shop or Photoshop to make them better, and finally to put them in PDF format.  I also purchase schematics for other individuals as I need them for repair or research and offer those for sale onn my site, usually at a greatly reduced price compared to what I paid.  Currently I'm negotiating with a local music shop that's closing for the purchase of their file cabinet w/ contents.  Who knows what gems lie within?  I do try to get orders to customers as quickly as possible. Finally, if you do need hard copies mailed to you, I only charge $1 for US shipping per order and $2 for overseas.

[wampcat1]

I appreciate the comments you guys have made concerning my schematic sales at RonSound.  The issue of charging for a schematic has been at debate for several years now and I have been flamed at least once in newsgroups as a result.   I look at it as I go to the trouble to find these schematics and keep them on hand, scan them in, clean them up as much as possible in Paint Shop or Photoshop to make them better, and finally to put them in PDF format.  I also purchase schematics for other individuals as I need them for repair or research and offer those for sale onn my site, usually at a greatly reduced price compared to what I paid.  Currently I'm negotiating with a local music shop that's closing for the purchase of their file cabinet w/ contents.  Who knows what gems lie within?  I do try to get orders to customers as quickly as possible. Finally, if you do need hard copies mailed to you, I only charge $1 for US shipping per order and $2 for overseas.

totally fair, IMO.

All those that think a person shouldn't charge for intellectual info should consider first if the person has any time, knowledge or effort invested. Yes, you could probably search for hours looking for a particular schem or other item, but if you need something quick and/or don't want to bother with the INCONVENIENCE of looking for info then pay a couple of bucks.

What job do you have? Let's say you work as a carpenter. Would you mind if your boss called you up and asked you to look up lumber prices and find a blueprint of a roof system unless you are paid for your time?

This kind of mentality p's me off. Time, knowledge, and CONVENIENCE ARE worth something folks. Just because some people choose to give it away for free as a hobby doesn't mean that everyone should.

bw

[cleanroom]

Mark,

Opinions on univibing a PH-2?

[Mark Hammer]

Mark,

Opinions on univibing a PH-2?

Yeah.  Don't.  Take one look at the board, then back away from the bench very slowly.

Seriously, the board has roughly the same component density (maybe even more) as the (in)famous Dimension C. One of the densest boards Roland/Boss ever made.  And too nice a pedal to bugger up.

Get yourself a nice $20 4-stager from somewhere and mess with that instead.

[cleanroom]

10-4

Thanks

[Aharon]

Crap!!!!!!!!........nobody can tell a story like Mark..............
Aharon

[R.G.]

Every bookstore is making money with somebody else's intellectual property.

...um, actually, every bookstore makes money by working to pay the intellectual property owner's licensing fees. The arrangement seems to please both the writers and the bookstores.   

[ulysses]

hey guys

i bought a PH2 a while ago- to be honest i dont like the stock sound very much..

its high time i univibed it

now im looking at the IR3109 chips on the schem, i see the series of caps/resistors combos hanging off them that need to be changed.

i guess the question will be, which part values to use and im a little confused by the "4+2 (swept/unswept) and 8+4 (swept/unswept)" part you mentioned. from my glance over the schem i cant make heads or tails of it..

mark/rg- any suggestions?

cheers
ulysses

[swt]

you can't univibe it, because it's not a 4+2 stage. if you take a look at the switches, it's a 10 stage (8 swepth, 2 fixed) with general positive resonance, or 12 stages ( 4+2, 4+2) with two resonances...a general one and 6 stages regenerating themselves, that's why it's almost unusable and thin sounding as a 12 stage phaser. As mark said...buy or build a simple 4 stages if you want univibe sounds.