SAD problem with a ross flanger i fear...

[StephenGiles]

Good morning, I'll dig out the bounce circuit tonight in case anyone needs it.

[pinkjimiphoton]

so.... in summary...

this flanger isn't worth modding, better to mod something else. it may not be TZF, but it appears to be close enough for rocknroll.
i'm sure i don't have it adjusted as per factory, but i've had like 10 of these over the years, and they all sounded pretty much the same.
this one is MUCH more intense..

and yes, that rubber band thing at the bottom of the sweep i REALLY like.

the reticon may indeed have one good side.. i believe i can pop it in the sad512 socket of my full double tracking effect maybe to see... it's gotta weird chip, it's the same length as the 1024 but only has i think 8 pins or so...i'd have to look.

i won't trash the reticon...but i really do want to save the brand new one for the mxr 117 project dave hooked me up with.

i hate to ask, but i've looked thru pages upon pages of threads about the substitution of a mn3007 (which i have a bunch of...line up, guys, when you're done with dave, lol) but i haven't seen anything graphic that newbs like me can decipher.

does anyone have a conversion they can hip me to? i can work out a vero daughter board, but i don't understand really what's what in terms of trying to make two (to me, anyways) completely different things substitute.

a schematic would be freekin' awesome...or did i miss something? it seems a lot of stuff that used to be linked to some of the older threads is gone now.

[jdub]

Hey Jimi- as oldschoolanalog said, don't give up on that SAD yet.  In you posted voltages, it looked like there was voltage present at the outputs of both sides; I had a prob with an SAD in an MXR build and was getting 0 volts at the output of the bad side...worth looking into.  If it does end up being the chip, a single-sided SAD can still be used- check out this thread, especially page 3: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=93646.40.  Federico (Fender3D) turned me on to a mod for the MXR that uses (in my case) an SAD512 and works beautifully- practically indistinguishable from a full 1024.  You might consider poppin' yer good SAD into the Ross and doing the MXR build anyway, using either the bad 1024 or the MN3007 daughterboard, which also sounds good...good luck either way, dude!

[pinkjimiphoton]

thanks john,
who knows? i've kept the "bad" chip, but i'm pretty sure it's hosed.  the voltages all stay the same with the good chip and the bad one, but only one works.
we'll see what happens..
for now, the sad chip will live in the ross...it sounds so nice, i can live with that. but i STILL wanna work up the daughterboard for this..i've found the threads, i've found the layouts etc...but it's way, i mean WAY over my head still.

[12Bass]

Swapping in an MN3007 is not that complicated.  The big differences are that the power and ground lines have to be swapped and that the clock rate has to be doubled to compensate for the doubling of BBD stages.  The rest is just working out the details.

[oldschoolanalog]

The 2 sections of the SAD1024 are in series in the Ross (and MXR117). No need to double the clock f in these pedals. The A/DA & EM are a different story...
However; I do agree. The devil is in the details.
@jimi: I'm on the case. 

[pinkjimiphoton]

thanks guys.

i'm trying to begin to see the light...so would you simply reverse the power supply to the chips like you would going between a pnp and npn version fuzzface?

i don't really "get" what all the connections are, seems the "details" between them are part of what is rendering what little brain i have null and voider.

voided?

voidoid?

so like, would you then sum the inputs and outputs? doesn't it still need a half power supply as well?

too many questions... 

dave...you will achieve godlyke status for pulling this off. you could probably make a living selling conversion chips to guys with dead sad pedals.

[oldschoolanalog]

I'm just a hack with a soldering iron, 'scope, test gear and very limited knowledge.
My only strong point is a willingness to take on and try ideas that are talked about but little R&D has been done on.
That pretty much sums it up.

[pinkjimiphoton]

lol...well., let's put it this way...if i had 10,000 typewriters, you could probably replace peter tork with me. 

[B Tremblay]

Folks, I have one question:
Before you close your nice Ross Flangers, would it be possible that someone takes a picture of the solder side so that this little baby can be traced ? 

analogguru

It took some time to find a deep socket to remove the pot mounting nuts, but I finally did and took some photos.  Here are the small versions, larger ones are available at the home-wrecker.com Ross Flanger page

[pinkjimiphoton]

brian, that's awesome bro...sorry, all i have is a crummy phone to take pix with, these look great..

mine tho, the sad chip was socketed...wonder if there's any other diff? i think yours is an older one, mine was made in taiwan, even tho it's that lovely shade of purple red..

[oldschoolanalog]

Thank you for the nice photos Brian!

[B Tremblay]

The BBD chip is socketed in mine.  It is a USA-built model and the date code on the pots indicates it was produced no earlier than May 1979.

[wavley]

Jimi, I love you just a little more for making a Richard Hell joke, don't think it went unnoticed.

[pinkjimiphoton]

Jimi, I love you just a little more for making a Richard Hell joke, don't think it went unnoticed.

[pinkjimiphoton]

The BBD chip is socketed in mine.  It is a USA-built model and the date code on the pots indicates it was produced no earlier than May 1979.

ah, diggit.. i see that now. on mine, the socket is white, not black!

i used this thing live again last nite...and have decided i'm gonna sacrifice the new sad chip and leave it in there. this thing sounds amazing now. i highly reccomend playing with the trimmers, the stock ross settings are pretty mild... obviously the bias doesn't leave you much room to work, as the flanging only takes place over maybe 20% of the trimmer's range.. but the wet/dry trim and especially the clock can make an unbelievable difference.

i'm getting real close to the same kinda sounds charlie gets in his set up videos for the mxr 117. stock, the ross doesn't do that. a couple minutes with the trimmers, and a completely different animal. i don't think it can be hurt by messing with it, but i  may be wrong so of course be careful. but i am pretty sure once you mess with it and get some of the capabilities out of this you can't stock, you may find this simplest of "mods" is worthy.

[B Tremblay]

Just in case I feel experimental before putting the back plate on again, which is which trimpot?

[analogguru]

Thanks for the pictures, I can compare the rest now easier.

Just in case I feel experimental before putting the back plate on again, which is which trimpot?

As I wrote earlier:

Anyhow, you have the last version of the Ross Flanger (same pcb as in the black one) and what can be seen from the pictures the schematic of the MXR Flanger (M-117) should match pretty well:
http://www.shredaholic.com/mxrflanger.html

The BBD-bias trimmer (R49 in the MXR-schematic) is the upper middle (between the pots), the trimmer beside the recycle pot is the "trim level" (R 48) and the trimmer (down in the middle) beside the transistors is the "trim clock" (R43).

analogguru

[pinkjimiphoton]

yep. my suggestion is  (with it open and upside down, knobs away from you) crank the top left trimmer full blast, then hit the bottom one closest to you to adjust the clock. start with it all the way up, and you should hear a very phasey sounding flange. back it off until it sounds good to you, then play with the upper right trimmer and get it to where it sounds best...relatively small window. back off the clock a little bit, and play with the two until you find a nice balance. i have mine set so that the bottom and top of the sweep are about the same time, and backed off just to the point where it starts to sound like a metallic rubber band at the bottom. that way, can still get all the same sounds of the original ross a little earlier with the recycle control, or crank it up into jet territory. you still can find the killer chorusy and mild flanges, but can take it way beyond the stock sounds. i've had about 6 of these over the last 43 years, and this one is the best sounding of the bunch. all of them from the factory are pretty tame compared to what you can get out of it. you may find some settings of the bbd bias/clock give almost a formant kinda phasing sound. it's pretty hip.

and worst case? turn the trims back to where they were, and it's stock. but i think you'll appreciate the diff, brian.

analog guru...thank you so much for the help and insites!!

[B Tremblay]

Thanks to both of you for the info and tips.  I have never played it that much and maybe if I can tweak it a little, that will change.