Pedal suggestions for subtle break-up tone (when the amp is just too clean)

[m4j0rbumm3r]

I had a thread in the 'Lounge OT' section about how to get 'break up' from very clean amps, like a Fender Twin (see: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=100539.0).
As I've come to realize it's pretty much an up hill battle -and I love building and modding stompboxes anyway- I've decided to instead go with a drive pedal as the source of 'break up tone'. Hence this new thread in the 'Building your own stompbox' section, which is a more fitting subforum. Sorry for claiming too much digital real estate.

Essentially, I am looking for something that does a nice amp break up sound, so pretty slight and subtle drive and gain by typical overdrive pedal standards. The sort of tone I'm looking to get close to: SRV - couldn't stand the weather rhythm tone. If the pedal has a maximum gain that approaches, say the Andy Timmons - Electric Gypsy intro tone, that would be ample. I know these are great players with great amps, but I figure I need to give you some concept of tone here. Just something to take an amp from country to blues territory, without needing the amp itself to break up.

I can use my tube screamer for more gain and sustain during solos, but it's too mid-humpy to leave on all the time IMO. I also love to build weird fuzzes, but in this case I'm looking for something 'transparent' sounding. Most pedals I have played throughout the years are way too gainy for the problem at hand.

So, do you reckon there are pedals/schematics that I could use for this?

Thanks guys!

p.s. I know mantras like 'nothing beats the real thing', 'tone is in the hands', etc. There is much truth in all that IMO. But, I'd like to have workable (perhaps even good?) break up tone regardless of what amp I get to play through for gigs or band rehearsal.

[pappasmurfsharem]

These sound pretty nice and the controls work similar to amp.

http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/06/wampler-tweed-57.html?m=1

http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/08/wampler-black-65.html?m=1

[Johan]

Try cot-50 . Marshally and responsive to your touch
J

[Strat68okc]

I was going to suggest those as well. I use my Black 65 as a pre-amp basically and have the boost on a stomp switch. I set it to where its just about to break up and then use the boost for leads. For more "Modern Country" overdrive stuff I still use my Ultimate Drive.

I'm starting on this project herehttp://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=98119.0 and then this onehttp://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/10/rocktron-austin-gold.html. It has a few issues but I still want one.

The Paisley Drive http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/10/wampler-paisley-drive.html looked good too.

The other guitarist in my band uses a Cot-50 I made for him. He really likes it as well. Really dynamic and responds well to the volume on your guitar. The only issue I have with it for country is that it has to be first in the chain to sound right with his/my gear. I went another route because I like that 'over compressed" country lead tone, and I was having trouble getting it with the Cot-50 first.

[Mich P]

Earthquaker Devices : Speaker Cranker.

[m4j0rbumm3r]

Wow, these are all -without exception- very good suggestions. Thanks a lot. 

I was going to suggest those as well. I use my Black 65 as a pre-amp basically and have the boost on a stomp switch. I set it to where its just about to break up and then use the boost for leads.

I think I'll go this route as well. The demos of the Black 65 I found were all great, but the first thing I thought was "why not use a second footswitch for the boost?".

Do you reckon an additional potmeter (gain control) to set the amount of extra gain and volume for the boost stomp would be useful?
Can't wait to get the parts and start building!

[Strat68okc]

I think a boost gain would be great. If I had any idea where to add it in I'd have one already. Only downside is it then becomes a 6 knob pedal. I'd love to know how to do it though.

[davent]

Have you tried a simple boost such as a SHO or AMZ Mosfet Booster so your guitar signal just hits the first tube stage harder and the breakup is generated there? Both dead simple to breadboard and audition.

[Taylogc]

Head over to Barrys site guitarpcb and look at the T. O. D. D.   Transparent overdrive deluxe... Built one to slightly drive my deluxe reverb... Very light drive

[m4j0rbumm3r]

Have you tried a simple boost such as a SHO or AMZ Mosfet Booster so your guitar signal just hits the first tube stage harder and the breakup is generated there? Both dead simple to breadboard and audition.

That's a very sensible idea when you play through your own amp, or at least some kind of 'familiar' amp. The reason I'm looking for a pedal to provide nice break-up tone is that I simply do not always know what I get to play through. For gigs -when it matters- in particular. It could be some ultralinear twin, it could also be a solid state amp. It would be very practical for me to have all the tones I want from a small pedal board, even though some amps will sound great when simply driven hard.

I think a boost gain would be great. If I had any idea where to add it in I'd have one already. Only downside is it then becomes a 6 knob pedal. I'd love to know how to do it though.

Quite right. Six knobs, but I could put two rows of three knobs at the top as I wouldn't need the boost toggle anymore. I'd put the two foot-switches at the bottom left and right, perhaps on a slightly wider enclosure. So now I just need to think of the best way to add a boost gain control. I haven't yet found a schematic for this pedal, only a stripboard layout. If someone could post a link to a schematic that would be nice, otherwise I'll see if I have the time to deduce it from the vero in the next few days and perhaps come up with a boost gain control mod/addition. Mind you, I consider myself a novice builder, but I'm sure smarter folks than myself would point out any big errors if I share my thoughts on the forum.

Man, this forum is odd... It's a rare combination of knowledge, benevolence, patience, adherence to grammar, and a lack of visuals of fit females - all of which is is pretty much the opposite of what the interwebs generally known for.

[midwayfair]

Madbean's Lavache does a really nice tweedy/marshal breakup if you want a super simple project. (For the record, the COT-50 is basically the same circuit but clips differently.) Runoff Groove's Azabache is freaking amazing and you an eq it much like your amp's tone (in silver or blackface mode) or boost the mids some (in tweed or blonde mode). There are several fuzzes that can be turned into really nice overdrives. Skreddy's Screwdriver (a fuzz face variant with a mosfet input stage) is a really great OD and can do edge of breakup very well. And you can easily mod the tubescreamer circuit to have flatter mids. That works well.

Some more food for thought ... In "Can't Stand the Weather," there's no "rhythm" guitar to speak of until the guitar solo. It's still the lead tone during the verses -- so it's almost certainly a tube screamer used as a boost all the way, and there's probably also hardly any distortion on the guitar signal at all -- just loud clean guitar that's probably overdriving the microphone (and you won't duplicate that sound ...). It's got a vibe or possibly leslie on it, too. The distortion could be coming from there (the Leslie has a gain control that creates some distortion and vibes have low input impedance, which means if you drive them with a TS they'll distort).

[m4j0rbumm3r]

Yeah good points about the SRV tone. I stand corrected and educated. Also, thanks for pointing out the lavache (the cow?). I didn't know that one yet.

Most of the suggestions in this thread would do various flavours of 'break up' tones nicely. This time, I'll go for Fender-ish tones instead of Plexi-like sounds, though I love both. I've pretty much decided on first building a slightly altered Black '65, keeping the other suggestions as possible future builds.

To contribute one option I found: the Lovepedal OD11 sounds very nice in some Youtube demos. But, the best tones I've heard are with the pedal running on 18V and driving a tube amp. The 18V is a bit inconvenient and, also, it's not so clear how much the tubes are contributing in that demo. Anyway, for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZqv2BhvNw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m39s

[Mustachio]

Man I love SRV tone and it can be hit and/or miss trying to recreate it. I think some one mentioned that mic'ing the amp gives another layer of sound to set ups and can make things more difficult to recreate.

I believe Stevie and a bunch of others after him use 2 tube screamers or have been known to. I know Trey from Phish was said to do this as well. First TS set up as a boost and second as a drive. I've built a hand full of OD's which seem to suit my needs best for blues type stuff. I also Believe Stevie was known to use a mix of fender amps but also I heard one of the staples that gave him his sound was a Peavy special or stage 112 (off the top of my head I cant remember) but the peavey was solid state I remember hearing that. Then toss a mic on the amp and you get a whole new level of sound.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Klon centaur. Its pretty much known as "Thee" pedal that produces a natural boosting overdrive to push a tube amp into clipping. The other popular one might be the Timmy I've heard about. I've never had the pleasure of playing on a klon myself but after reading and listening to them it seems like something I'd really enjoy. And the creator seems like a good guy, and the hype seems like it was just a mess from other people on the internet.

From what I understand the klon uses a charge pump to get 18v out of 9v and run with a bit more headroom then 9v pedals and that is probably where its getting its cleaner more natural sound. But I really couldn't say as I haven't built a clone or studied the circuit myself. I've just read a bit about it. So you can run the klon on 9v adapter and internally the charge pump is pushing 18v through the circuit. Which is probably what you want.

You may not get perfect SRV tone ever(or maybe you will). But getting the sound you feel comfortable with is doable! I've mainly been a fan of ultra clean fender amps like the blackface your playing on I love em! But currently I play on a Bassman clone with a master and vol. And I gotta tell ya It's the bee's knee's , Toss a dynacomp or an orange squeezer in front of a tube screamer with it and its really close to SRV or some Hendrix blues album! Also the tube screamer variant I built and play on as my main OD lately is the SRV special. Its pretty nice, mainly has some caps removed and is more of a straight forward OD. I prefer the silicon diodes which is like stock over LED or germanium. The LED and Germs make it louder and cleaner.

Also In a band situation you often need to change settings drastically to cut through the mix. Some times that means more gain and less natural sounding.

Just re reading your original post while I type this. Do you use a compressor ? If not maybe throw together an orange squeezer real quick or a dynacomp and set vol above unity. It gives this slight but natural dirtyness that doesn't sound like fake clipping. Its nice and makes blues gritty as well as evens out all your notes and makes playing anything just feel easier. Maybe tell us your current set up. I myself am still and always searching for that special tone. Some days you find it and other days its gone. lots of variables. But with a lil work you can usually get close enough.

[midwayfair]

Man I love SRV tone and it can be hit and/or miss trying to recreate it. I think some one mentioned that mic'ing the amp gives another layer of sound to set ups and can make things more difficult to recreate.

I believe Stevie and a bunch of others after him use 2 tube screamers or have been known to. I know Trey from Phish was said to do this as well. First TS set up as a boost and second as a drive. I've built a hand full of OD's which seem to suit my needs best for blues type stuff. I also Believe Stevie was known to use a mix of fender amps but also I heard one of the staples that gave him his sound was a Peavy special or stage 112 (off the top of my head I cant remember) but the peavey was solid state I remember hearing that. Then toss a mic on the amp and you get a whole new level of sound.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Klon centaur. Its pretty much known as "Thee" pedal that produces a natural boosting overdrive to push a tube amp into clipping. The other popular one might be the Timmy I've heard about. I've never had the pleasure of playing on a klon myself but after reading and listening to them it seems like something I'd really enjoy. And the creator seems like a good guy, and the hype seems like it was just a mess from other people on the internet.

From what I understand the klon uses a charge pump to get 18v out of 9v and run with a bit more headroom then 9v pedals and that is probably where its getting its cleaner more natural sound. But I really couldn't say as I haven't built a clone or studied the circuit myself. I've just read a bit about it. So you can run the klon on 9v adapter and internally the charge pump is pushing 18v through the circuit. Which is probably what you want.

You may not get perfect SRV tone ever(or maybe you will). But getting the sound you feel comfortable with is doable! I've mainly been a fan of ultra clean fender amps like the blackface your playing on I love em! But currently I play on a Bassman clone with a master and vol. And I gotta tell ya It's the bee's knee's , Toss a dynacomp or an orange squeezer in front of a tube screamer with it and its really close to SRV or some Hendrix blues album! Also the tube screamer variant I built and play on as my main OD lately is the SRV special. Its pretty nice, mainly has some caps removed and is more of a straight forward OD. I prefer the silicon diodes which is like stock over LED or germanium. The LED and Germs make it louder and cleaner.

Also In a band situation you often need to change settings drastically to cut through the mix. Some times that means more gain and less natural sounding.

Just re reading your original post while I type this. Do you use a compressor ? If not maybe throw together an orange squeezer real quick or a dynacomp and set vol above unity. It gives this slight but natural dirtyness that doesn't sound like fake clipping. Its nice and makes blues gritty as well as evens out all your notes and makes playing anything just feel easier. Maybe tell us your current set up. I myself am still and always searching for that special tone. Some days you find it and other days its gone. lots of variables. But with a lil work you can usually get close enough.

I thought about mentioning the klon, but it's maybe too mellow for this sound when the drive is more than just cracked. The presence of a TS to me just sounds very different. The Klon's got a huge "filling out" sound whereas the TS is just pumping up the guitar's presence and cut. Most of the time I can't get enough treble out of a klon(e), but a TS has too much.

The distortion is also different (hard clippers). Madbean's Kingslayer (a strict improvement imo) is a take off on it that has a soft clipping option -- this would be closer to a tubescreamer, and lowering the "bass cap" (noted in Bean's build document) would get even closer. I've done that as a mod on a couple I've built and I always prefer it. I've got a demo of the Kingslayer on my YouTube channel.

But the more I think about it, the more I believe that the Azabache is the way to go here for a baseline edge-of-breakup truely Fender-y tone. The gain is just the input to an early JFET stage, so overdriving it with a TS during leads will work to great effect. It's also not a particularly difficult build and uses common parts. Someone around here even did a PCB run. Here's the link to the original project: http://runoffgroove.com/azabache.html

[m4j0rbumm3r]

I think a boost gain would be great. If I had any idea where to add it in I'd have one already. Only downside is it then becomes a 6 knob pedal. I'd love to know how to do it though.

Strat68okc, would you use a boost gain control primarily to increase or to decrease the 'jump' in gain caused by the boost?

I just tried to draw a schematic on paper from the vero and it became an illegible mess. Hmmm...

However, unhindered by sufficient knowledge, I would think that a boost gain reduction control could essentially be added as a second gain pot that is inserted (for boost enabled only) between the original gain pot 'output' lug and whatever that was connected to.

Train of thought:
- Let's assume that the original gain pot has 'signal in' on lug 2 (wiper), ground on lug 1, 'signal out' on lug 3. Turning the pot determines how voltage is divided between ground and signal out lugs. (edit: I now realise this is not really the way it's normally wired, but I'll leave the post intact for the sake of historic accuracy)
- Replace the original 2 pole double throw switch used for boost enable by a 3 pole double throw type (or even 4PDT if you also like to add a LED for boost).
- Wire the original gain pot's output to the center lug of the extra column on the boost switch
- For boost disabled, wire directly from the corresponding outer lug of the switch to wherever the original gain pot's output used to go. This is essentially the original circuit unchanged, it only goes through a switch now.
- For boost enabled, wire the corresponding switch lug to the wiper of the extra 'boost gain reduction' pot. Wire its lug 1 to ground (edit: or to nothing?) and its lug 3 to wherever the original gain pot's output used to go. This adds a gain reduction control that is only in the signal path when boost is enabled, and acts on the same point in the circuit where the original gain pot is. All it can do is reduce the jump in gain between boost enabled and boost disabled though.

I hope this makes any sense. Sorry I don't have a drawing for it yet.

[m4j0rbumm3r]

But the more I think about it, the more I believe that the Azabache is the way to go here for a baseline edge-of-breakup truely Fender-y tone. The gain is just the input to an early JFET stage, so overdriving it with a TS during leads will work to great effect. It's also not a particularly difficult build and uses common parts. Someone around here even did a PCB run. Here's the link to the original project: http://runoffgroove.com/azabache.html

Ah I was typing my previous post as you posted yours. Having listened to the Azabache, I have to say it sounds stellar. I hadn't been able to find demos of it earlier.
I'm in doubt again as to what to do now!

[Strat68okc]

I would want to be able to increase the boost stage gain. I found a schematic over at the other forum, but I don't know if it would be useful to you or not.

I built an Azabache as well, never could get it to work. I'm sure I screwed up somewhere. That was what made me decide to try some vero board honestly.

[chromesphere]

Second

Madbean's Lavache does a really nice tweedy/marshal breakup if you want a super simple project.

Second vote for the lavache.  It has a good, low gain range.  Heres an audio sample:

As mentioned in the video, i found a low gain transistor to sound best in this circuit.

Good luck!
Paul

[Strat68okc]

I like that Lavache too. I do know this is a slippery slope. The more pedals you check out, the more you like and the harder it is to decide on something. Time just doesn't permit me to build them all...

[davent]

I like that Lavache too. I do know this is a slippery slope. The more pedals you check out, the more you like and the harder it is to decide on something. Time just doesn't permit me to build them all...

...i've learned that that's what breadboards are for...