Using the PedalSync MV-64 Analog BBD Delay Clock chip with your 3205/8 designs

[MoltenVoltage]

I'm happy to announce that MV-64 is now available!

The PedalSync MV-64 BBD Delay Clock chip and module output the high-speed digital clock required by classic Panasonic MN3205 and MN3208 Analog Delay ICs and their clones.  MV-64 outputs a clean, variable, high-speed clock designed to drive Bucket Brigade Delay chips, and stores and recalls Delay Time, Delay Ratio, Clock/Tap Status, Modulation Ratio or Rate, Depth, Offset, and Bypass Status.

Here is a link to the datasheet:
http://www.pedalsync.com/documentation/PedalSync_MV-64_BBD_Delay_Controller_Datasheet.pdf

   It's important to note that any subset of features can be used, such as only tap tempo and the delay ratios, if you are not interested in programmability, modulation, MIDI, etc.


The goal of this thread is to field technical questions related to incorporating MV-64 into your designs.

There are schematics in the datasheet showing the necessary JFET buffer, and connections to circuits that use MN3102 and CD4047 clocks.

It was a simple matter to make the chip drive BYOC's Analog Delay.  I pulled the 3102 Keith was using as an oscillator and ran the buffered clock into pin 7 of the remaining four 3102's.  That's really all there is to it.  I've also tested it with a 4047 to make sure the clock output was clean and it works great with that chip as well.

Please post your questions here.  Thanks again!

- William

[CW32]

I am very curious about how this works.

I am still fairly new to pedal building. I have several overdrive/distortion/fuzz clones under my belt, but no programming experience and no delay pedals or anything along those lines. And I don't have a ton of money to throw down.

What is needed to make this a full blown delay pedal?
Do I have to have the master controller to build and use this?

Thank you in advance for the response.
-Chad

[Mark Hammer]

Chad,

I applaud your curiosity.  As much stuff as this chip packs in (and it packs in a LOT!), there is a great deal more required to produce a working analog delay.  Enough that it would likely frustrate the novice builder.  My own recommendation would be to hone your chops a bit more with some other projects, and maybe even take a stab at one of the many remarkably simple PT2399-based delay projects floating around (Merlin Blencoe has some terrific ones, and Jon Patton just posted one the other day).  For as many virtues as analog delay CAN have, I have to say that the PT2399 delivers up an amazing amount for very little outlay and few headaches.

Once you've gotten used to building things that fire up right first time, and can manage troubleshooting on your own, THEN take a stab at using William's ingenius chips with some BBDs.

[MoltenVoltage]

Hi Chad,

Thank you for your interest.

No, you do not need to use the Master Control with MV-64.  You can make a stand-alone delay that has just the features you want, such as tap tempo and modulation.  The MIDI control is optional (but a lot of fun!)

With all due respect Mark, it takes a single wire to convert any BBD delay into a programmable, MIDI-controlled, tap tempo delay with synchronized modulation (or any subset of these features).

I'm in the process of working up a tutorial on how I hacked the Carbon Copy.  Basically remove the delay pot, desolder and lift pins 1 and 2 on the 4047, then run the buffered signal from MV-64 into pin 3 of the 4047.  It's literally a 5 minute hack.

Hacking BYOC's analog delay was even easier.  Simply remove the first socketed 3102 chip and run the buffered signal from MV-64 into pin 6 on the socket (which connects to pin 7 of the remaining 3102's).

As long as the circuits share a common ground, one wire is all that connects them.  Since the Carbon Copy box is full, I put the digital controls into a separate 1590BB stomp box and put a jack where the delay pot went on the CC.  I also used MV-59, the Four Presets chip to store and recall 4 preset settings.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Thanks again,

- William

[Mark Hammer]

If the delay circuit is intact, you are absolutely correct.  My sense of the OP (though I may have read it too superficially) was that he was thinking one might only have to slap on a $5 BBD chip and it was a done deal, not realizing there would need to be buffers, anti-aliasing, mixers, etc.; all the usual stuff a delay includes, apart from the clock section.

If I was incorrect, then my apologies to both of you.

[MoltenVoltage]

No worries Mark!

It's not clear what the OP wants to do, but in any event, I was able to "pre-hack" the Carbon Copy by looking at some gut shots before it arrived.  If anyone has a BBD delay schematic that uses 3102 or 4047 clock chips, I'd be happy to tell you what needs to be done to hack it and where to connect the buffered MV-64 clock signal.

[MoltenVoltage]

Smallbear now has the PedalSync MV-64 BBD Delay Clock chips and modules in stock:
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Categories?category=Molten+Voltage%2FPedalSync

The analog delay hack tutorial is coming soon, I just need to finish up the PCB layout.  You will be amazed by its simplicity!

[changoman]

Let´s go William.

Thank you very much.

Pablo

[space_ryerson]

The analog delay hack tutorial is coming soon, I just need to finish up the PCB layout.  You will be amazed by its simplicity!

I look forward to seeing it!

[changoman]

First, thank you William for sharing your Knowledge and experiences.

I think building a BYOC analog delay is well explained in the pdf instructions, anyway  you can take a look at the videos: http://buildyourownclone.com/advidinstructions.html
I think it´s hard for new builders (like me) but not impossible.

So, just to be ready for the William revelation day , I need to prepare:

-1x analog BBD delay with 3205/8 ic´s (BYOC analog delay, Mxr carbon copy, ) maybe a deluxe memory man?... (it uses mn3008, same terminals assignments  but different supply voltage...)
-1x PedalSync BBD Delay Clock Module (musikding stock? date?)
-1x MV-56B Four Pots Module
-4x Hi-V Pot Modul   
-2x MV-57 Relay Bypass Module I´m not sure about it (sorry, need to study)
-a box, midi conectors, spdt mini switches, bypass footswitch, pots, leds, wire and patience...

Thank you again.

Pablo

[MoltenVoltage]

I'm putting the finishing touches on the tutorial for the Analog Delay Control Station which includes a verified layout and drill template for the 1590B.  There is also a tutorial on hacking the MXR Carbon Copy and a quick video demo of the pedals.  Should be posted within 24 hours.

Also, for European DIYers, Musikding now has the MV-64 chip and module available:
http://www.musikding.de/Kits/Pedalsync/MV-64-BBD-Delay-Clock-chip::3646.html

[changoman]

I'm putting the finishing touches on the tutorial for the Analog Delay Control Station which includes a verified layout and drill template for the 1590B.  There is also a tutorial on hacking the MXR Carbon Copy and a quick video demo of the pedals.  Should be posted within 24 hours.

Also, for European DIYers, Musikding now has the MV-64 chip and module available:
http://www.musikding.de/Kits/Pedalsync/MV-64-BBD-Delay-Clock-chip::3646.html

Yeeeeeehaaaaa. Thank you William.

[MoltenVoltage]

Time to hack your analog delay, the Delaytion tutorial is finally done! 



Here's a link to the Delaytion build tutorial which includes a verified layout, drill template, and more:
http://www.pedalsync.com/Delaytion_PedalSync_MV-64_Analog_Delay_Control_Station_Project_Hack_DIY_by_Molten_Voltage.html

Here's a link to the MXR Carbon Copy modification tutorial:
http://www.pedalsync.com/MXR_Carbon_Copy_Hack_for_Delaytion_PedalSync_MV-64_Analog_Delay_Control_Station_DIY_Project_by_Molten_Voltage.html

Delaytion will work with any analog delay that uses the Panasonic BBD chips MN3205 and MN3208 and their Cool Audio clones, assuming it is properly modified!  Don't blame me if you fry your delay trying to mod it!

Post any questions on this thread and Enjoy!

[changoman]

Revelation day has come. Nice. . It´s near clear for me.

Time to study....

One question using de mv-64 module.... What is the  input midi clock pin´s in the mv-64 module? 20-21 (label I4-I5)? I suposse they receive the external midi clock signal managed from  6N138 optocoupler and 74F14 Schmitt Trigger... and this clock is sent to the carbon copy by the pin 10 (label14).

Thank you again

Pablo

[changoman]

Let me one more basic/stupid question... the 6N138 optocoupler and  Schmitt Triggers are soldered in the mv-64 module... isn´t it?

In other words, all I can see in the schematic (except midi jacks) is the mv-64 module?

Sorry again

Pablo

[MoltenVoltage]

Hi Pablo,

Yes, the MV-64 module comes with all the MIDI in and out circuitry.

Delaytion is a stripped down project that uses MV-59B (the 4 MIDI Presets chip) to recall Programs 1-4.  Since it's a direct connection, the opto-coupler isn't necessary for Delaytion.  The goal of Delaytion was to make a smaller simpler project for those that don't use an external MIDI controller.

To make an Analog Delay controller that can store and recall 128 programs and sync to MIDI Clock, it's a lot easier to use the MV-64 module, but it will need to be in a bigger enclosure.

Module pins I4 and I5 receive the MIDI Clock and Program Change information, but that data goes to MV-64 (via the opto-coupler and Schmitt Trigger).  The BBD clock output for the Delay comes from pin 14 of MV-64 (labeled 14 on the module) then goes through a JFET buffer to get it up to the right voltage for the Delay.

- William

[Levispeights]

First let me say this looks AWESOME and I will be modding my CC and building a Delaytion.

I do have a quick question however. How good does the tapped tempo sync with the actual delay sound?

I only ask because I have build several PT2399 based delays and used the Taptaion chip to add tap tempo, and the problem with that chip is the timing of the delay and the tapped in time doesn't always match up exactly due to the inconsistencies of PT2399 chips.

Is it the same with BBD chips?
Thanks!!!

[MoltenVoltage]

Hi Levi,

Glad you like it!

That's what's great about the Analog 3205/8 Delay chips, they use a digital clock to set the delay time instead of an analog resistance.

It's kind of ironic that the Digital PT2399 chip can be painfully inaccurate when you use a PIC-controlled resistance since digipots are typically +/- 30% tolerance.  I think that is the likely source of most of your error as opposed to the PT2399.

MV-64's tap timing is accurate to within a 10,000th of a second.

- William

[space_ryerson]

Very promising! Do you think there is way to use something like a 4PDT switch on my MN3205/MN3102 delay to toggle between using the Delaytion and unmodded mode?

Also, is there any stepping when turning the delay time knob?

[MoltenVoltage]

Very promising! Do you think there is way to use something like a 4PDT switch on my MN3205/MN3102 delay to toggle between using the Delaytion and unmodded mode?

Also, is there any stepping when turning the delay time knob?

I think a 3PDT switch would work since you would need to reconnect pins 1, 2, and 3 of the 4047.  Soldering wires to the Carbon Copy's SMT pins would be more than a little challenging!

There isn't any audible stepping that I can hear, although the delay time pot uses 256 increments and the length of delay time (and therefore time between increments) depends on the chip select and delay ratio selected.