"new" old fuzz...the Suzy-Q Kustom Harmonic Clipper

[LucifersTrip]

Since Mark brought up the Knight Fuzz, here`s a nice write up Dave did on it; http://....org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20090. I think some of the mods he did on it could be applied to the Suzie-Q as well, especially where «harshness» is concerned.

...don't have to go to fsb for my Knight build report,
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=99677.0

But, though it's similar to the Knight Fuzz, it's just too damn close to the Astrotone / Sam Ash. I've built multiple stock Knight Fuzzes and Astrotones (and tweaked and modded both) and there's a pretty big difference in sound. The Knight was muddy and had no balls as stock, but the Astrotone (as we basically have here with the Suzy-Q) only needed the right transistors (my final version had no mods) to get it to sound cool.

If you read build reports, you'll find that many found it to sound best with transistors in the 300 range, which is very close to what I got before I read those. Here's my final with voltages


If I wanted more volume, I guess the 1st thing I'd do to the Suzy-Q is try silicon diodes or use ge's in series.

[pinkjimiphoton]

hmmm, wonder it tacking that tone control on would take the "edge" off some.

thanks dave, gonna have a play with it later i think. i don't understand how the hell the tone control can work tho, there's no filter attached to it!!
or is it using the .047 cap before it somehow?

this knowledge frightens me and makes me want to hang garlic around my vestibules!! lol

i could try doubling the diodes.. but i REALLY like the tone as it is, and in my experience, doubling diodes will probably change the tone some.

there's gotta be a simple/elegant tweak to pull off.

[LucifersTrip]

hmmm, wonder it tacking that tone control on would take the "edge" off some.

thanks dave, gonna have a play with it later i think. i don't understand how the hell the tone control can work tho, there's no filter attached to it!!

it's a really cheapo tone control that many would frown upon, but for me it's cool enough. It's just a resistor across the volume pot with a limiter so you can't hit 0

remember, a while ago, with the Fuzz Face, I suggested you experiment with a 500K pot across (lugs 1 -3) the 500K volume pot and slowly turn it down (decrease K) so you could see what happens. same here, as you go lower, there's a slow decrease in volume and the treble increases (or is it the bass that decreases...or both?). either way, a cheap, goofball tone control that would probably never be used today.

[pinkjimiphoton]

ahhh, probably not worth messing with. tho a little less treble would be good, it really can't afford to be quieter.

i DO  remember that conversation, though, and WILL  try it...thanks bro!

[digi2t]

doing the asian icemen style

I must say, I'm honored myself! Thanks bro! 

I tried the Omega on the front end, and it kicks major booty. Great boost up, and quieter than the Rangemaster. While the "Range" pot takes care of dialing in just the right amount of drive, the "Master" knob handles how far you want to push things. It's poifect for me. I would rename the "Range" and "Master", to "Drive" and "Boost", and finish off with an output volume control.

On the Suzie-Q side I found that increasing the 0.0047 cap tames the top end, while increasing the 0.068 fattens up the bottom. In my setup, changing the 0.0047 to 0.1, and increasing the 0.068 to a Panasonic 1uF metal film gives me an increase in volume, a firm chunky bottom end, and top end sparkle without the icepick hiss. I can live with the 10K output pot.

I was thinking about your unity problem, and then I thought of the final stage of the Gemini III fuzz. It uses a very simple clean booster to up the output.



The tranny I used in the Gemini is a 2N5088. It should give you a more than adequate boost, without coloring the tone.

[digi2t]

Did a quick redraw, adding the bells and whistles;



The Omega section ass end has been corrected to eliminate the "Itchy and Scratchy" pot problem. I added the optional BOOST section to the Suzie-Q. You could up the volume pot to 100K.

I don't have any radio station problems on the breadboard, hence no pF caps around the FET's.

[pinkjimiphoton]

awesome!!

yah, i didn't even keep the .0047, i just stuck it across the volume pot.
i'll try adding the stage on a daughter board. sounds like it may be just the ticket.

will also try going to even bigger caps, see what happens. i believe we'll sus this out and make it perfect!

are you getting enough output at 10k? wondering if maybe i should try 50 instead of 100?
it seems to go up...albeit marginally...all the way to the top of the 100k, but that may be where some of the hiss is coming from.

dave's trick with the p cap in parallel with the bc of q1 is a good trick, but i found if i go above 10p it whacks off too much treble and it loses the sparkle that
makes it so cool. it could be cuz of the mosfets i guess... the sterno face is a little hissy, too, probably cuz it uses the same transistor in it.

i see ya posted an update...nice!!

i would seriously advise trying the 100k pot on the input tho, it's like the "attack" control on a tonebender. if ya don't like it, don't use it!

maybe that's why i'm losing a little volume maybe? i'll try it with a 500k and see what happens!

thanks bro!

[digi2t]

I've never used the VN2222 before, but the treble isn't that harsh with the BS170. Still it does need to be tamed somewhat, and I think the key to that is that 0.0047 capa at the end. I sorta like the 0.1 in it's place. Kills a lot of hiss, and the sparkle is still decent. You could go halfway, and stick a 0.068 in there. I found upping the output 0.068 to 1uF also upped the volume, but I think that's more a result of increasing the bottom and mid, so it's more like "increasing perceived volume"  .

[pinkjimiphoton]

that's why i went up to .22, gave it more ass and took some of the earwigs away.

it's pretty decent now, probably won't get to do a SPT til monday-ish. if i get a chance, i'll try adding the extra stage on a daughterboard.
got a problem fender pro jr. on the bench, the guy who'd teched it in the past lifted the pads on most of the traces, so it gets intermittent and it's a real bitch to fix.
i've had it in and out 4 times now, last time it was good for a month, and right back it comes again. ay yi yi yi yi...

i also need to listen with a fresh set of ears to it.. it's a fine line between "blow" and "hiss"..

i may try the bs170, i think i have some. i LO-O-Ove the tone of the vn's, but may have to compromise.

beats me. brain death has struck at this point.

[Gus]

If I wanted more gain and a lowpass filter.  I would build something like the following.
I would remove the follower stage and make it a controlled/designed gain stage (about x10 as shown gain can be adjusted).
and place the lowpass between the stages (output resistance of the first stage,R14 and C7) Increase or decrease C7 for lowpass
adjust coupling caps values for highpass frequencies



Also I don't like the first stage biasing of the first stage of this fuzz(grounded emitter with only a C to B resistor) I would use the C to B and B to ground type biasing like you find in a BMP IF you want the feedback from C to B.  This is more predictable without selecting a hfe of the transistor.

[pinkjimiphoton]

but...

i'm using mosfets, not 5089's, and the key was to try and capture some of that kustom "vibe".

i'm no where near advanced enough at this point to do all that. for me, if it passes sound and fuzzes, i'm good!

pretty much at this point, it sounds good. probably better than you'd expect bro.

sometimes, what's right gets trumped by just sounding good. right now, i'm just looking to tweak the circuit just slightly to see if i can get a little more out of it,
without changing it's tone. it's close.
the original idea as posted by dino was so good i literally got lost in it for a couple hours, which almost never happens.

but i am grateful for your help/guidance/suggestions/ideas big time, gus... you are a patient man, to try and get this dumb schmuck to learn anything!!
and i am... in fits and starts... slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwly...


the low pass filter in this case is  c7 r10 and r11? won't that make it a little lower in volume tho? it looks like almost the same circuit, i like the idea of going up to .1u on the caps. just worried it may start to lose the "sound" it had originally. going to .22 brought up the volume and mids/bass a bit, but it's almost too much.. kinda obscures the tone it had originally (which was more of a treble boosted fuzz).. the .22's seemed to drop it's effective range down about an octave harmonically, if that makes any sense.

i'll have a play with it when i can, my son's here visiting, so my experimenting has to wait for another day.

thanks bro... please don't get me wrong, i appreciate every thing you've tried to show me!!

some of it is starting to stick!!

[pinkjimiphoton]

k, so...

here's uh, da deal...

the omega "boost" section is PERFECT. doesn't f' up the tone, and makes it so unity gain is about 9:00 instead of just below full tilt boogie!!

used a 5089 and a 2.2k for subs, but it works great. i'll re-do the vero with the added boost.

took off the .0047 cap across the volume control, don't need it any more. could probably go back down to .047 on the coupling caps.

[digi2t]

the omega "boost" section is PERFECT

Uh bro... I think you mean the post boost section, right? At the end of the Suzie-Q circuit? The Omega is a whole different circuit, for the front end, like a Rangemaster.

I'm glad the post-boost circuit worked out. Like I said before, it was something that I spotted in the Gemini III fuzz. As a matter of fact, it also uses a pre boost section front end, on the silicon side, like this;



I guess using this one would drive the rest of the circuit harder, instead of simply amping the final product. Could be a simple add-on as well, if you want to pre-amp the circuit, to drive it harder.

Desicions, desicions....

[pinkjimiphoton]

dude...

found the PERFECT front end.

i had built this a long time ago and messed it up, built another one this morning.

gonna tack it on to the input of the circuit. takes care of the noise issues, makes the pedal react to the guitar more, and the volume pot works as a "boost" knob...



and totally doesn't f with the tone. it SOUNDS like a kustom, but more important, it FEELS like a kustom.

reacts right. it's pretty cool!!!

plenty of volume now with the boost at the end, too. you can get tone just about anywhere on the od control.

so gonna relabel the three knobs as boost, harmonics (cuz that's what it adds) and volume.

stupid pedal trick grows imminent...

thanks for all the help and advice!!

and yes, with the buffer, it plays nice with one of my fuzzfaces, the jerkulator, and the fuzz/od thing i just made.

[Gus]

the omega "boost" section is PERFECT

Uh bro... I think you mean the post boost section, right? At the end of the Suzie-Q circuit? The Omega is a whole different circuit, for the front end, like a Rangemaster.

I'm glad the post-boost circuit worked out. Like I said before, it was something that I spotted in the Gemini III fuzz. As a matter of fact, it also uses a pre boost section front end, on the silicon side, like this;



I guess using this one would drive the rest of the circuit harder, instead of simply amping the final product. Could be a simple add-on as well, if you want to pre-amp the circuit, to drive it harder.

Desicions, desicions....

The type of bias used in the fragment above is not a good design IMO.  (resistor base to +9VDC)
You might want to try the parts of the circuit I posted.  The part right of the diode clippers (R14 and to the right)you don't need a buffer to a gain stage.

You can have a lowpass filter(passes lows takes out highs) and a gain stage with a gain of 10 in the example you can increase or decrease the gain with adjusting the resistor values.  R12 and R13 are sim of a 100K volume control at max volume

[pinkjimiphoton]

one more to add to the list of things to try.

gonna try and work up a schematic for the whole shebang, as built. 

[rutabaga bob]

Yes!

[pinkjimiphoton]

AS PER YOUR REQUEST, LARRY!!!!
lol

vero to come. this is the circuit i built... nevermind it's on three circuit boards at the moment.

i'll cobble together a vero for it as soon as possible. maybe. i suck at stuff that's even slightly complicated!!

but...that said.. it works. it does what it should. the 11k resistor is actually a 10k trimmer and a 1k resistor, but
i don't know how to really draw that, with what i was working with.

all knobs half way up, it sounds like suzy q or green river. crank the attack knob, and it gets more focus and bite.
crank the harmonics up, and it starts to saturate.
there's enough volume on tap to overdrive pretty much any amp without having to crank the attack and harmonics.. unity gain is about 9:00 now.

the more ya crank it, the better it sounds. responds to your guitar like a good fuzz face.

wah friendly before/after. plays nice with fuzzes too, tho they can get REAL freakin' saturated.

wanna thank dino and gus for the advice, and thank felipe osorio, from whom i stole the input buffer (which is pretty close to the foxrocks wah buffer), and whomever the hell made that boost dino turned me on to.

i likes it. this one is probably the best sounding pedal i've monkeyed together yet.

stupid pedal tricks iminent... stay tuned!!

[digi2t]

WOW bro, NICE!!!

Quick question/observation; Would it be better to not connect the Attack pot to ground? That way you could turn down the attack, but not kill the signal completely.

[pinkjimiphoton]

hmmmm, good call. i haven't stuffed the buffer into the rat shack box yet, i could lift the ground easy enough. see how it is.

right now, it's nice, but that would improve it some for sure. maybe even float it, put like a 2.7k resistor.

worth a shot!

couldn't have done it without ya bro, thanks!!! i wanna build your version too.. i have a feeling it's a little "heavier" than this one is..

and i'm a sick bastard, i loves me some stankin nasty fuzz..