Legal advice for building guts and selling the pedal to someone else.

[markeebee]

BTW, my signature move down at Cinderella's is a handclap, 360, then a cheeky left-right hip wriggle.  If any of youse are flipping that, your Daddy had better be stacked because my people are coming DOWN on you.

[artifus]

*reassesses life choices*

[Electron Tornado]

Here's a post from a while ago that will hopefully provide some perspective: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=82344.msg683152#msg683152

Since writing that, didn't Danelectro put out a pedal in their Cool Cat series that was basically a copy of the Timmy? The result was that the Timmy folks were not amused, and made Dano change the design? (Or was that all just a rumor??)

[artifus]

you miss my point methinks.

such 'problems' only exist due to our current mode of operation. my point was that it doesn't have to be this way and that you should, perhaps, question why it apparently is and consider reasonable alternatives.

[Electron Tornado]

you miss my point methinks.

such 'problems' only exist due to our current mode of operation. my point was that it doesn't have to be this way and that you should, perhaps, question why it apparently is and consider reasonable alternatives.

If you are replying to my post, you've completely lost me. Can you be more specific? 

Of course, if that wasn't a reply to my post, then carry on, and I'll try to follow along. 

[Thecomedian]

Here's a post from a while ago that will hopefully provide some perspective: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=82344.msg683152#msg683152

Since writing that, didn't Danelectro put out a pedal in their Cool Cat series that was basically a copy of the Timmy? The result was that the Timmy folks were not amused, and made Dano change the design? (Or was that all just a rumor??)

Everything I read in that "legalese" web page says that you cant copyright or patent components in as far as the value of the resistor used and the type of transistor used in the pedal you make, so the function of the design, if you can legally buy it and reverse engineer it, is not protected.

using PCB and/or external box + any markings relating to something already patented/copyrighted is infringement.

[R.G.]

Let me add my standard warning.

It is possible that you are on the correct side of the legal line. Only a jury - not a lawyer, not a judge, not a legal textbook, and certainly not the internet - can decide which side of the line you're on.

The problem is that you probably can't afford to be wrongly accused. In a civil suit, which is what patent, copyright, and trademark infringement cases are, you do not have the right to have an attorney appointed for you at no cost. That's only criminal cases. At least in the USA, and it gets really complex if you're not in the USA for some jurisdictions. I know from my own sad experience that it is unlikely you will find an attorney to represent you for less than an initial retainer of about $10,000, plus regular billing. It costs about $100,000 in the USA for all the wrangling that gets a case up to trial, for small cases.

If you are completely in the right, but sued by someone whose toes you stepped on anyway, you're going to either have to
(1) find a decent lawyer and pony up the $10,000, hoping that it can be squashed before he/she runs through that $10k, and meanwhile wondering where you'll get the other $90K.
(2) find a ... well, lawyer     that will take the case for a portion of the proceeds if you counter sue somehow and manage to get something from the person suing YOU. This is an unusual situation, as you can guess. However, there are many situations where an attorney will take an initial suit on contingency like this. Which is one of the things which makes the situation a little scary. 
(3) represent yourself. Bad Choice no matter how you cut it. He who has himself for a lawyer has a fool for a client. They'll eat you alive.
(4) find a legal defense organization who will fund your fight because of the injustice of it all. You're going to have to figure out how it's unjust enough to interest them first, though. 

Remember, that's the case if you are completely, solidly, 100% in the right, dead legal, and the jury would side with you. In the USA legal system, everyone pays their own legal fees, win or lose. It's one of those things that makes people who can't afford much justice a bit timid, and properly so.

I'll say it again. If you are thinking of doing something that you think even might possibly be misconstrued as infringing enough to wrongly irritate someone who can afford more justice than you can, go spend $200 on a consultation with an attorney of your choice for some advice. In court is one of those places you can't even afford to be proven right.

Look up "interval windshield wipers" for a glimpse at how someone who is completely legally correct fares when dealing with entities that can afford a lot of justice.

And enjoy. 

[Jdansti]

Good points, R.G.  While we're discussing legalities, how about the liability issue?  This is a nasty area that we don't talk about much, but if your pedal causes or is even suspected of causing someone's house to burn down, your customer and you will be in a world of hurt.

So does anyone (or anyone you know) carry liability insurance and have their pedals tested by UL or some another underwriter?

[Thecomedian]

Good points, R.G.  While we're discussing legalities, how about the liability issue?  This is a nasty area that we don't talk about much, but if your pedal causes or is even suspected of causing someone's house to burn down, your customer and you will be in a world of hurt.

So does anyone (or anyone you know) carry liability insurance and have their pedals tested by UL or some another underwriter?

would that be similar to the "liability" of a person who whittles out a wooden chair, and if it happens to break and you lawyer-version hurt yourself, they could sue you?

[Jdansti]

^ You can be held liable for anything you sell, distribute, or manufacture that injures someone or damages their property.

As I said before, I ain't a lawyer, but that's my understanding after working almost 30-yrs in a field where business are required to maintain liability insurance.

As a side note, if you know a registered professional professional engineer, ask him/her if they would go one day without liability insurance.

[R.G.]

Good points, R.G.  While we're discussing legalities, how about the liability issue?  This is a nasty area that we don't talk about much, but if your pedal causes or is even suspected of causing someone's house to burn down, your customer and you will be in a world of hurt.

So does anyone (or anyone you know) carry liability insurance and have their pedals tested by UL or some another underwriter?

Yes, and yes.

would that be similar to the "liability" of a person who whittles out a wooden chair, and if it happens to break and you lawyer-version hurt yourself, they could sue you?

Yes. And in a country where people get large damage awards because they were burned by hot coffee they spilled on themselves, where someone collects for injuries suffered operating a 30year old machine without safety guards because THEY removed the safety guards that were there, it's an issue. There doesn't have to be any reality to the injuries to force you to defend yourself in a damages suit, with the noted costs.

We mostly all get along with our daily lives by not thinking about the legal system and what it's capable of if we run afoul of it. We mostly all get away with it because we're too small as targets to attract much attention. But that doesn't mean it *can't* happen.

I'm back at my original statement. If you are doing something that makes you wonder about your legal position, go ask someone who is in the justice business, not a group of people who speculate on the internet. I am not a lawyer - but I HAVE been burned by them, even though I won the cases.

[Jdansti]

^ In the end, it's the lawyers that win...

[amptramp]

Just to illustrate some differences in the law in various places, patent infringement is a crime in Japan and the penalties are criminal.

[Paul Marossy]

Look up "interval windshield wipers" for a glimpse at how someone who is completely legally correct fares when dealing with entities that can afford a lot of justice.

I have a friend who has double degrees - is a P.E. (BSME) and a lawyer. I remember him telling me about this case once, it was part of his studies in patent law IIRC.

I would say that the outcome of that case is probably not the norm. Most lawyers probably wouldn't touch a case like that if the client wasn't financially loaded unless there is big money involved and they think they can "score". I know I could never afford a lawyer, I can hardly pay the bills on my income.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Look up "interval windshield wipers" for a glimpse at how someone who is completely legally correct fares when dealing with entities that can afford a lot of justice.

I have a friend who has double degrees - is a P.E. (BSME) and a lawyer. I remember him telling me about this case once, it was part of his studies in patent law IIRC.

I would say that the outcome of that case is probably not the norm. Most lawyers probably wouldn't touch a case like that if the client wasn't financially loaded unless there is big money involved and they think they can "score". I know I could never afford a lawyer, I can hardly pay the bills on my income.

There was a movie made about this exact case...

"Flash of Genius" starring Greg Kinnear

Was a great movie by the way 

[Paul Marossy]

Huh, I'll have to check this movie out.

[Thecomedian]

Huh, I'll have to check this movie out.

remember "based on a true story" means the bullet points are preserved and then they invent an hour and a half of fictional dialogue and interpersonal relationship strife to bridge the gaps.