ZW-44

[jsleep]

Sorry about the mundane topic.

I built the ZW44 on the ITS8 PCB.

http://analogguru.an.ohost.de/193/schematics/Mxr_ZakkWylde.gif

The bias for Q1 transistor was not a problem as far as I know, but maybe it is (I left it biased of the VR like the screamer).  It sounds great to me, but I'm not sure it sounds like a ZW44.  The sound samples on youtube seem to have a more metal sound than this one I built.  I'm trying to see if I might have made a mistake somewhere.  Mine sounds like I expected it would, sort of like an SD1, since it is so similar to SD1.  But some of the sound samples on youtube sound like a real metal pedal.  Not sure if they are driving extra distortion out of the amps or if I don't have it right.  Some of those samples are also playing in dropped-D tuning which also adds to the metal sound I guess.  Does this thing really sound as "metal" as the youtube demos? 


JD Sleep

[aron]

JD all those metal guys are driving the front end of (usually) a killer rig. although......

Seriously, listen to this:

[Thecomedian]

JD all those metal guys are driving the front end of (usually) a killer rig. although......

Seriously, listen to this:

/drool

I want my gear to sound like this... someday...

[rousejeremy]

Now we have to start building those little amps?

[jsleep]

Well, from what I can tell, it's probably working like (or at least similar to) a ZW-44.  If anyone is interested I posted the schematic and layout toward the bottom of this page:

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/projects/17-distortion/82-its8-tube-screamer-808-replica-project

Since the PCB has room for 2 sets of clippers I built the toggle switch for optional LED clipping, but it wasn't worth it, the asymmetric diode clipping is a much better sound.  I might try some MOSFETs in there someday to see what that sounds like.

Thanks!
JD

[MetalGuy]

It sounds great to me, but I'm not sure it sounds like a ZW44.

I built one couple of years ago and no matter what I did it didn't sound like the original which a friend of mine gave me for comparison. The caracter kind of was there but the original had more gain. Maybe it should be copied 100% with all those ceramic SMD caps and stuff.

[J0K3RX]

I think it's the combination of the TS808 pushing the little Marshall MS-2 running into a mesa 4X12... Sounds insane!!! I gotta try this

[TheWinterSnow]

As a metal player I'll give you a little secret about overdrive pedals.  They aren't used for distortion.  You still need an amp that has good onboard high gain distortion, like a 5150, Rectifier, SLO100, Uberschall, almost anything Engl etc.  The OD pedal is used to shape the sound of the guitar going into the amp.  Typical settings are high volume, extremely low gain and tone to taste going into an amp that is in a high gain channel with enough saturation to melt your face off.  The OD pedal just beings things over the edge.

The biggest reason for using an OD pedal is to turn to tone from sounding like the strings are made of rubber bands, to being made of metal like all electric strings are.  It gets rid of that flub sounding, almost fuzz sounding distortion (think The Beatles "Revolution") to something more like...indeed Black Label Society.

The general rule of thumb setting wise is volume high, at least 12 o'clock if not all the way up, drive between all the way down or 9 o'clock maximum, and tone usually at least 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock.  That will be going into an amp already heavily distorted, the OD just tightens things up and brings a metallic sheen to everything.  For a musician like me who plays in Drop B or 7 String tuning, an OD pedal is an absolute must, for Standard E and Drop D, depending on the guitar and pickups you may not want a boost, but most of the time I prefer a boost for everything high gain, but that is just me, your mileage may vary.

Now, on the other hand there is the possibility of your clone not sounding the same as the MXR version, but you need to test an original to yours before you put that verdict in place.

OT: Aron, you a regular Sneap Forum lurker/member?  I ask because that video is of Lasse Lammert who did that video in a sort of response that Ola Englund did on the Forum where he actually mic'd an MS-2 and it sounded amazing.  I did the same thing in a blind test between a 5150 and a Line 6 Spider II HD150 into the same cab and everyone though the 5150, the real amp was an amp sim and the line 6 was a real tube amp, most were saying it was the 5150.  Basically jaws dropped when they saw the results, I can post the link if anyone is interested.  Tone is more of your knowledge of dialing in and correctly micing amps, as well as in the fingers of the guitar player, they do say that 90% of the tone is in the hands and for the most part it is true, but knowing how to dial in the amps is also a good place to start too.

[aron]

> OT: Aron, you a regular Sneap Forum lurker/member?   

No. I can't remember how I came across that video - but I was amazed at the sound. I did understand that the overdrive is used exactly as you describe, but WOW, that's an amazing sound out of a small amp. He said it's almost all the speaker and I believe it. Yes, I'd like to see the 5150/Line 6 thread.

Aron

[FiveseveN]

the OD just tightens things up and brings a metallic sheen to everything.

Translation: it's used as a glorified band-pass filter, and the difference between the various Tube Screamers, Maxon overdrives and derivatives like the ZW is minor at best. Even at minimum gain, they do offer some overdrive, but their main function is the 720 Hz high-pass, which makes the harmonics more prominent. For this application I would recommend a Tim(my) or similar design where one can adjust the bass cut, or a Son of Screamer with selectable C2.

Yes, I'd like to see the 5150/Line 6 thread.

Ditto.

[bluebunny]

I think it's the combination of the TS808 pushing the little Marshall MS-2 running into a mesa 4X12... Sounds insane!!! I gotta try this

BTW, if you build this, there's a mistake near the output.  The 510R is for feeding the headphones only.  The speaker output is taken before the resistor.

[J0K3RX]

It's not unheard of for very low wattage amps running into 1X12, 2X12 or 4X12 cabs to sound excellent! It's also pretty common knowledge that running a tube screamer or variant in front of an already high gain amp has great benefit... Tightens up the bottom end, sharpens the attack etc.. The TS gain setting on zero or close to it and the level all the way up or close is also pretty common knowledge as well, at least in the metal/thrash/heavy rock world anyway. The tube screamer has been used for decades in this way for this purpose, George Lynch comes to mind and many many others. For that reason and for this application you don't need the tube screamer to produce a lot of gain, more of a tight boost driving the input of the preamp. The TS808 and TS9 or close variants are timeless favorites for countless metal players and this and simply can not be beat... To me anyway, adding more gain to a tube screamer/variant is getting out of the realm of how it is used to drive high gain amps since you are probably going to have the gain almost all the way off or close to it. Anything to improve it would most likely be a labor in futility other than widening the tonal characteristics to give a less restricted more natural guitar tone or some tweaks to the level to give it more bottom end punch and or high end sustain... Getting too far over that fine line and you're leaving the overdrive neighborhood and getting into distortion box territory. This is fine but, if you are going to use more pedal distortion then you are going to be using less of your amps natural distortion which can be good or bad depending on what amp and distortion pedal combination you are using.. You have more of a variable there as you have to have a good combination of both or you will get mud or thin or just plain crappy sound. With both you obviously have to be able to dial in "the sound" which some people can't do no matter what setup they have. I have a friend that loves to play direct through a mixer board with his Line 6 HD500 and uses no cab simulation or any filtering whatsoever and I don't need to tell you but it sounds like pure sh!t! He can't understand why all of the youtube vids and sound samples sound so good and his sounds like pure crap and I have told him countless times what he is doing wrong but he insists to keep running it that way and keeps crying about his sound... His ears have just become accustomed to hearing it that way while he is playing. I have even built him cab simulators to try and he hates them... his ears have become retarded!

Back to the "little amp big cab" argument.. I have a small Ibanez TBX practice amp and it sounds like a friggin monster running into a 4X12! I think a lot of these small higher gain practice amps might sound good running into a larger speaker cab! I also have a small Marshall MG10 which also sounds incredible running into my 4X12... Obviously not all cabs are the same so yours might sound better or worse than mine, speakers have a lot to do with it! And a good mic well placed is also key! I think it's a matter of being able to dial in "the sound" with what you have and a lot to do with how you play! If you read through the comments under the youtube vid posted with the Marshall MS-2/tube screamer you will see a lot of nay sayers and smart @sses commenting and saying it fake.. Lasse Lammert gets quite frustrated trying to explain to these turd nuggets how it's not fake but they will have none of that lol... Dude is a beast! Totally believe the vid is real!    

Another fine example of a low wattage amp pushing a 4X12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7n2_6wuhys
And another...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg5A5xEoxRM

Bluebunny - Thanks... I guess I should have put a link to the page I got it from.
http://guitar-dreamer.blogspot.com/2010/06/modding-marshall-ms-4ms-2-micro.html

And obviously these are not going to get incredibly loud... So, in a band setting it might not be so good unless you mic it

[J0K3RX]

More proof..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0hlNFaQnLY

A tube screamer + MS-2 in one enclosure and maybe + a good cab sim out (optional) as well = Some cool @ss metal pedal!

[MetalGuy]

As a metal player I'll give you a little secret about overdrive pedals.  They aren't used for distortion.

For most people here it's not a secret at all. The question was that a ZW-44 copy doesn't sound the same when compared to the original. 

[J0K3RX]

As a metal player I'll give you a little secret about overdrive pedals.  They aren't used for distortion.

For most people here it's not a secret at all. The question was that a ZW-44 copy doesn't sound the same when compared to the original. 

That's gonna be real hard to tell unless you do a side by side comparison on the same amp with the same guitar... Just comparing to youtube clips will be questionable at best.

[FiveseveN]

if you are going to use more pedal distortion then you are going to be using less of your amps natural distortion

Coming back to what I've said earlier, what makes an amp's distortion more "natural" than a pedal's?!
Anyway, since this thread has wandered off into the "small amps, big cabs" topic, here's my own little take (LM386 amp, metal part at the end of the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FNgxAoGLeA

[J0K3RX]

Ok, let's talk about the ZW-44 even though it's been discussed at great length already... Like I said before, it's gonna be real hard to know if your ZW-44 clone sounds like an original unless you do a side by side comparison. We have the schematics and it has been traced in multiple forums multiple times so, I think we are beating a dead horse here...? If the schematic is correct which I believe it is then what's left? If you want the ZW sound then get a Gibson Les Paul Custom with "Bullseye" Graphics, EMG 81/85 pickups, a Marshall JCM-800 2203 amp and yes, a ZW-44, grow a beard and learn a Black Label song or two and drink some beer...  I have played a ZW-44 into a clean amp channel and if you do it this way you will be greatly disappointed.. Use it with the gain off and the level all the way up on the high gain channel and you will be happy Then try a TS808 and a TS9 and tell me if the ZW-44 is any better? It's ok but I personally don't like it, much. Gimmie back my tune screamer, damn-it!

[MetalGuy]

That's gonna be real hard to tell unless you do a side by side comparison on the same amp with the same guitar...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I did side by side comparison with the same guitar and with the same tube head, pedal was connected to the amps Return, so the difference can be heard very clearly. Other people have listened to it as well and they also find difference mainly in the amount of gain.  After all the whole thing is not a big deal - just another TS/SD type of booster.

Just comparing to youtube clips will be questionable at best.

No, It's just a waste of time...

I have played a ZW-44 into a clean amp channel and if you do it this way you will be greatly disappointed..

As previously noted all those TS/SD modded clones are useless when used by themselves unless you're into jazz, blues or something similar.

[J0K3RX]

That's gonna be real hard to tell unless you do a side by side comparison on the same amp with the same guitar...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I did side by side comparison with the same guitar and with the same tube head, pedal was connected to the amps Return, so the difference can be heard very clearly. Other people have listened to it as well and they also find difference mainly in the amount of gain.  After all the whole thing is not a big deal - just another TS/SD type of booster.

Just comparing to youtube clips will be questionable at best.

No, It's just a waste of time...

I have played a ZW-44 into a clean amp channel and if you do it this way you will be greatly disappointed..

As previously noted all those TS/SD modded clones are useless when used by themselves unless you're into jazz, blues or something similar.

Wasn't in reply to you, more to the first poster... You clearly know your sh!t