Klon Centaur Question

[DougH]

  If I had a nickel for every time.....

The Klon Centaur was never, I repeat, NEVER designed to have a sound of its own, but was intended to precondition the signal to push an amp at the edge of breakup into desirable/optimal breakup.  I had two in my possession at one point and I have to tell you that if you were going to dime them and feed them to a Fender Frontman 25 or any other solid-state amp set for clean, you would likely be sorely disappointed.  They were supposed to be supplemental front-ends for amps not pedals you feed into them.

Clips or it didn't happen.

[midwayfair]

This is the last forum where I thought we could avoid having Klon arguments.

   

Now let's forget our troubles with a bunny.

[Mark Hammer]

Forget our troubles with a bunny?

Surely you gest, Jon.

Did I ever tell you what OUR pet bunny (who is infinitely cuter, BTW) did to the 26 wire cable for my GK-1 pickup?  and to some of my best guitar cables?  and to various cables around the house connecting computers to broadband? and to the back of the stereo stand?  Do you have any idea what sort of imminent threat those adorable innocent petunias are under?

[Jopn]

  If I had a nickel for every time.....

The Klon Centaur was never, I repeat, NEVER designed to have a sound of its own, but was intended to precondition the signal to push an amp at the edge of breakup into desirable/optimal breakup.  I had two in my possession at one point and I have to tell you that if you were going to dime them and feed them to a Fender Frontman 25 or any other solid-state amp set for clean, you would likely be sorely disappointed.  They were supposed to be supplemental front-ends for amps not pedals you feed into them.

When Bill Finnegan was making and selling them, contacting him would result in a very pleasant 30 minute conversation about your rig and your musical tendencies/objectives.  If Bill felt you were not likely to benefit from owning one, he would discourage you from purchasing one.  I have no idea just how many such conversations - of both the productive and unproductive nature - Bill would have in any given day, but it was one of the factors that limited his production output, and ended up driving the re-sale price as high as it became.  The "sales strategy" was that people would be satisfied with their purchase.  It was NOT to deliberately restrict output to make re-sale prices high.  Bill only saw money from the initial sale, and not a penny from the re-sale.  If he did, he would undoubtedly still be in business.  Decent honest guy who had no control over what places like TGP or HC would do.

Although he did not sink much money at all into advertising, on those rare occasions that one would see an ad in Vintage Guitar magazine (always on the B&W newsprint pages, never on the glossy colour ones, and rarely if ever larger than 1/16 of a page), the ads consisted of written testimonials.  The best, and to my mind most descriptive owner comment, was one where the owner said it sounded like his amp, only...bigger.  I guess if you want an example, listen to Warren Haynes.

Mark, I absolutely love this description and explanation, thank you!

For anyone looking to get into pedal design, context like this is just as valuable as schematics when you're looking to stand on the shoulders of giants.

[midwayfair]

Surely you gest, Jon.

FTR, I love this typo.

who is infinitely cuter, BTW

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Mark Hammer]

[aron]

> The Klon Centaur was never, I repeat, NEVER designed to have a sound of its own,

But it does. Whether it was designed to have a "sound" is another story.

> but was intended to precondition the signal to push an amp at the edge of breakup into desirable/optimal breakup

You could say the same for a Tube screamer which actually has more success in this. In my case, my Shaka pedal is WAY BETTER (for me) than any Klon or Tube screamer.  :-)

Aron

[Bill Mountain]

> The Klon Centaur was never, I repeat, NEVER designed to have a sound of its own,

But it does. Whether it was designed to have a "sound" is another story.

> but was intended to precondition the signal to push an amp at the edge of breakup into desirable/optimal breakup

You could say the same for a Tube screamer which actually has more success in this. In my case, my Shaka pedal is WAY BETTER (for me) than any Klon or Tube screamer.  :-)

Aron

Speaking of the Shaka.  I've seen a bunch of versions.  Which one was the original?

[bluebunny]

who is infinitely cuter, BTW

Pics or it didn't happen.

[aron]

The Shaka Braddah. The original is not online any more. I am using a variant of the Shaka HV now. Apparently it is extremely good (to me) since I have not felt the need to make a mod on it for years now. I have not felt the need to go and purchase any other overdrive pedal either. Pretty weird. I have played some fuzz pedals that I would like to purchase though!

[DougH]

> but was intended to precondition the signal to push an amp at the edge of breakup into desirable/optimal breakup

You could say the same for a Tube screamer which actually has more success in this. In my case, my Shaka pedal is WAY BETTER (for me) than any Klon or Tube screamer.  :-)

Yeah, this pretty much describes every overdrive on the planet.

My rangemaster and hornby skewes does the same thing. Matter of fact, "precondition(ing) the signal to push an amp at the edge of breakup into desirable/optimal breakup" is pretty much the whole point of a booster.

[Digital Larry]

The Klon Centaur was never, I repeat, NEVER designed to have a sound of its own, but was intended to precondition the signal to push an amp at the edge of breakup into desirable/optimal breakup. 

While I can appreciate that you're saying that the desired test scenario is to run it into some appropriately-set amp (now THERE's a world of variation), and it also serves the purposes of boosting and frequency shaping, I wouldn't describe something that uses diode clipping as "not intended to have a sound of its own".  You're introducing new harmonic information that was not in the guitar signal nor was it generated in the amp.

[Mark Hammer]

Oh hell, you could say that about anything that increases signal level, Doug, including any 6-band EQ pedal, any compressor, or whatever.  If they increase amplitude, they will extract something different out of the amp, UNLESS the amp has some sort of input attenuation to counteract it.

I'm not going to place the Klon on a pedestal above all, but where the brunt of those other pedals were designed to have a function and sound, completely independent of where the amp was set to, and just happen to push the amp into a pleasing overdrive, the Klon was intended to fulfill ONLY that function.  It may not fulfill that function as well as some other pedals, depending on the user's preferences and the amp in question, but that's what it was intended to do.  It was never supposed to be a pedal that a 16-year-old could plug into their Squire/Frontman amp that came with their $90 Strat, and play at levels that would result in mom banging on the ceiling, yelling "Turn it down.  I'm trying to watch Vampire Diaries, here!".  Those overdrive pedals that every stinking manufacturer makes were supposed to provide the sound of an amp being pushed hard even when it wasn't.  And if it wasn't a pedal, then it was the "distortion" button and clipping diodes in that very amplifier with the 8" speaker.

And yes, Aron, the Klon is not neutral and does have "a sound of its own".  But where I can tweak a TS, or Timmy, or OCD, or any of Pinkjimi's or Dragonfly's circuits, or whatever, get a kind of sound intended to sound like an overdriven amplifier, even if amplified by a pristine clean power amp, the Klon was never intended to sound like an overdriven amp UNLESS overdriving an amp.  Yes it has clipping, but you're not supposed to hear the Klon's clipping; you're supposed to hear the amp's clipping that is partly produced via the Klon's clipping.

I'm not saying that is better or worse.  I'm just saying, after hours of dialogue with Bill, that this was the expressed purpose.  That does not mean the outcome can not be produced by any other means, just that this is what he was trying to do and how he was trying to do it.  Trust me, I had two to play with for a while, including one that had every single component socketed (Bill is nothing if not meticulous and thorough) so I could tinker with component values, and if I wanted a pedal I could step on to produce an "overdrive sound", without actually changing level very much, it would NOT be a Klon.  Now, if I played arenas, and needed a pedal that would kick my amp into a higher gear for solos, well.....

Most dialogue surrounding this pedal tends to be a byproduct of the attitudes fostered by the resale prices, and the resale prices are a byproduct of Bill's modest production output.  If he had been producing them in the sort of quantities that one can get ZVex pedals in, with a distributor in every major urban center, and the ability to walk into a Guitar Center, plug into one, try it out, and buy it for $250 (the sort of price that a great many boutique pedals will go for), we wouldn't be having this conversation.  We're having it because a guy made a decent product, touted by some big names (who will also tout $80 wah pedals too, BTW), and couldn't produce enough, leading some folks to resell theirs for large sums, leading other folks to want to clone it so they could have a pedal for $30 that might otherwise cost them $800 or more.  It was aesthetically elegant, functionally smart, and for 14 years commercially successful within a narrow niche, and that's the long and short of it.  Everything else is just internet nonsense.

[pinkjimiphoton]

@dough

youtube.com/666pinkster

check my klon(e) video out.

[Ofek Deitch]

Jimi, is the enclosure a 125b? or is it a bigger one?
Nice video by the way

[pinkjimiphoton]

that's actually just a radio shack project box. they're a little bigger than the hammonds, but easier to work and lighter weight, sheet metal instead of cast.
do you have radio shacks in israel? i dunno if they've made it out of this country or not, but the price is right, about 3.49 a piece and free shipping if ya order 50 bux worth.
they're fine for most purposes, and can stand up to my 330lbs ass stompin' on 'em... so...

glad ya like the video. i need to pull that pedal out and use it again. too many populated pedal boards. i should just go back to popping one per gig with exactly what i need.

btw, mark is right on the money, i haven't read this whole thread, but the klon by itself into a clean amp is lame. period. it's not what it's designed for. it's almost like a fuzz in this respect,
fuzz into clean amp is ridiculous and hokey. put it into a crunchy distorted amp, and it's a whole 'nother story.

this is the same for a klon. you can think of it as a distortion helper. something like a transmission in a car, or a bass player, for that matter to a drummer, it helps translate what your guitar is putting out into real amp friendly gears.. it helps "push" the amp harder, with only certain frequencies really "distorted".. into a clean amp, it sounds like a clean boost and is hardly something to get excited about..

but put it into some cranked tubes and play dynamically, and it will overdrive pretty much anything into a classic emulation of what a marshall SHOULD have sounded like.

they are great for doing that... a one trick pony, the "klon proffessional overdrive" 's whole ouvre was in it's name... you want that "proffessional overdrive"? choose klon. that's it... it's claim to fame. it does that one thing extremely well.

with some of my rigs, it has to be there. with some it doesn't. that said, it has a whole pedal board built around it of it's own. i value it greatly, personally. a lot of pedals only really do one thing great, and this one pulls it off, and with a very hip and original way.

anyways..


if ya want a good overdrive for a clean amp that makes that kinda sound internally, get a boss super overdrive,  put an nec5532 in it for the op amp, and change the diode clipping to taste.

the klon is different.


i have the schematics/layouts for the original shakah braddah if you need 'em aron i think.

which is the definitive shaka to build, anyways? always meant to try one...

sorry for the thread derailment..

[DougH]

Shaka Braddah 3 is a good starting place  but I think the clips of the HV stuff sound better.

Your description of the Klon sounds like my description of the Brown Source. Lame internal sound in a clean amp but -perfect- for "more marshall" into a dirty amp. It's a thing of beauty. Lots of tonal options too, more than one trick here.

[Ofek Deitch]

that's actually just a radio shack project box. they're a little bigger than the hammonds, but easier to work and lighter weight, sheet metal instead of cast.
do you have radio shacks in israel? i dunno if they've made it out of this country or not, but the price is right, about 3.49 a piece and free shipping if ya order 50 bux worth.
they're fine for most purposes, and can stand up to my 330lbs ass stompin' on 'em... so...

I'm trying to fit this circuit into a 125b, though I haven't managed to make it work on my proto-board. I only get weak signal..

[pinkjimiphoton]

Shaka Braddah 3 is a good starting place  but I think the clips of the HV stuff sound better.

Your description of the Klon sounds like my description of the Brown Source. Lame internal sound in a clean amp but -perfect- for "more marshall" into a dirty amp. It's a thing of beauty. Lots of tonal options too, more than one trick here.

thanks doug, i'll try and work up a vero of it then.

it's about time i guess... is it tube screamerish? i don't care for them things at all really...

i'm a FUZZ biggot.

[Derringer]

$0.02 post about the Centaur

I built one out of curiosity, put it at the end of my signal chain and sometimes use it.

I've found it very nice for recording when you want to get more of an "amp" sound out of lower volume.
I also like to use it when my band is working on riffs and we reach a point of hammering out an idea that doesn't need a tone of volume just to hear n tinker with, so again, I can make it do the low volume thing and still have the loud amp tone. I look at it like an extra Master Volume on my amp but at my feet instead of 20 feet away ... much better sounding than the passive volume boxes I've tried even with bleeder caps.

It also makes my superfuzz sound (to my ears) extra-special good, cuts better, grind-ier tone, for whatever clipping/conditioning it adds to that signal