my mind is blown, how can one pedal turn on another?

[alphadog808]

Hi guys,
  So I built a BSIAB and it sounds great!  I added it to my pedal board and after a while I noticed that when I plug in power to the BSIAB(pedals are daisy chained), it turns on my Ibanez TS9!  I thought maybe it just turned on the LED, but from I tested it and the TS9 is ON.

What is even more strange is if I have all the pedals plugged in and turn the whole pedal board on/off at once(via a power strip-any amount of times), the TS9 acts fine.  From my testing, the TS9 is only affected if I physically plug the power into the BSIAB.  No other pedals on the board exhibit this behavior.

I tried different pedals in the BSIAB's place, works fine.  I tried different power inputs on the daisy chain, the problem follows the pedal.  I modded the BSIAB to by pass the led, the problem still exists.  So it's something on the board...I think.  But it sounds great.  Usually when something is wrong the pedal doesn't work or it sounds terrible...  Any thoughts??

Seems like when I think I get building pedals down, another wrench gets thrown into the mix...

Thanks in advance! 

[gena_p1]

heh, you have shortcut somewhere. Non true bypass trigger is resetting then you push "on" button of bsiab. May be box is flexible, and 3pdt button touch box floor while pressing.

Multimeter will help.

[MrStab]

maybe it's something really obvious, or maybe something's electronically triggering the switching in the TS9. maybe a voltage spike from the BSIAB leaking past the in/out caps?

either way, i'd get a multimeter and test the tips of the leads leading to the (unplugged) TS9 to check the voltage as you plug in the BSIAB

[alphadog808]

Thanks guys.    Gena, to clarify, the TS9 comes on as soon as I plug in the BSIAB.  No pressing of the 3PDT switch.  

Note, only the power is plugged in, this happens even if there isn't any input or output cables connected.

What kinda confuses me is that the vero that I used isn't using all the same values as the GGG schematic. But it could be that maybe there is more than one schem floating around?  Not sure.

Only other thing I can add at the moment is that I *did* do the bass mod where you solder tack on a .22uf cap on R15 and I did add a 100pf ceramic cap to C5 to bring the value from 470 to 570pf.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what caps should I check?  Not sure how relevant it is as it happens with just the power connected.

EDIT: Mr. Stab, I put a mutimeter on the TS9 power input and when I plug in the BSIAB, I don't see a spike, I see it drop from about 9.01 to 8.99 when I plug it in...

[greaser_au]

...and here's me thinking you wanted us to give dating advice to your effects...  

Gut feeling suggests the BSIAB is causing a 'glitch' on the power supply, and toggling the flipflop in the TS9.   What is your pedal PSU?  A high output resistance in the PSU could cause the supply to sag briefly (too fast for the MM) as  the BSIABs 100uF supply cap charges. As a test, try powering up the PSU after you've connected the pedals - also try connecting the TS9 after the BSIAB- see if the problem persists... Potentially the problem might actually be in the TS9 and not the BSIAB.  One of the beauties of a bunch of discrete components is that the combination of tolerances can give interesting results - this is why there are 'good' and 'bad' fuzzfaces!

You might also consider the impact of the problem... does it actually cause any pain?  If not, slate it as a bizarre fact of life and move on to the next one .

david

[GibsonGM]

Gut feeling here: If your BSIAB is true bypass, and if you have nothing plugged into the BSIAB or TS-9, no cables, only the PS line...but the PS problem occurs when you plug the brick in - something is miswired in the BSIAB (and TS).     

Still leaves you with the comments about the TS-9 having some issue, but given the way the input jack is supposed to switch the power for BSIAB, you should have nothing happen at all when you plug in the power connector to it.   I'd do what Greaser says - try all combinations of cables etc. and write down what happens.   If anything happens without the input jacks plugged in, there is a wiring error (at minimum).

Or just live with it (after checking for DC on the outputs - if none present, no harm done).

[dwmorrin]

What is the actual power jack on your BSIAB?  I cannot tell from your pictures.
If it is a 3.5mm or can in anyway short the +9 to ground (touching the ring when you plug in), then your whole daisy chain will reset as you plug in.

[alphadog808]

Gut feeling here: If your BSIAB is true bypass, and if you have nothing plugged into the BSIAB or TS-9, no cables, only the PS line...but the PS problem occurs when you plug the brick in - something is miswired in the BSIAB (and TS).    

Still leaves you with the comments about the TS-9 having some issue, but given the way the input jack is supposed to switch the power for BSIAB, you should have nothing happen at all when you plug in the power connector to it.   I'd do what Greaser says - try all combinations of cables etc. and write down what happens.   If anything happens without the input jacks plugged in, there is a wiring error (at minimum).

Or just live with it (after checking for DC on the outputs - if none present, no harm done).

Thanks guys.  Gibson, to answer your thoughts, the BSIAB is true bypass.  I'm pretty sure the TS9 is ok because I tried other pedals(both commercial and DIY) and the TS9 was fine.

When you say check for DC on the outputs, you mean check if there is any DC on guitar cable itself, correct?  If so, I didn't see anything.  I think I saw a quick small spike when I would plug in the BSIAB, but then it would settle down.

One variable that seems to be overlooked is that this problem only occurs IF I manually plug in the power.  If I have the BSIAB plugged in and turn on the power strip(which turns the whole pedal board on) it's fine.  That made me think that maybe it was the power socket on the pedal.  So I tried another one...same problem.  In fact, when I tested it, the power socket wasn't touching the pedal chassis at all.

@Dwmorrin, this is the socket I've been using.

I don't see how this could short, but the fact that it only happens when I manually plug the power in makes it seem possible that something is shorting...but as mentioned above, I tried a different socket with the same results.

I'll try go through the board and wiring again; it's just boggling to me how it can sound so good and be wired wrong tho....!  Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!    Nah, I want to figure out what's happening as maybe something worse could happen and it irks me when the diy stuff doesn't perform like the real deal.

[dwmorrin]

Yes, usually those dc jacks are hard to short.
Next I would check that the battery + (which is connected to the switching terminal in the dc jack) isn't touching the casing.  That would result in 0V on the barrel of the dc plug, until the switch is disengaged.
I would also check that the battery wiring is correct.  (+ to dc jack, - to input jack ring)

[negativefx]

Are you powering it via a Boss Tuner pedal?  I've noticed if you plug a new pedal into the power daisy chain, the Boss Tuner cycles the power.

[Thecomedian]

I pulled a battery out of the simple Jack Orman TL071 buffer, and I was able to get it to turn on with some heavy strumming. Dat phantom power.

[alphadog808]

Are you powering it via a Boss Tuner pedal?  I've noticed if you plug a new pedal into the power daisy chain, the Boss Tuner cycles the power.

Actually...I think I might be, I need to double check.  I'd breathe a sigh of relief that it was the culprit,  but when I tested with other pedals, the  TS9 didn't reset...

If I am going through the Boss Tuner, I'll try to bypass it and see if the problem still happens.  Thanks for all the insight, guys!

[GibsonGM]

Wow, weird problem, man!  I hope you can figure this one out, it really has my curiosity going, ha ha! 

Any way the jack could short just for a brief millisecond as you plug in??? 

If this was a tube amp or something, I'd be suspicious of empty filter caps causing the appearance of a short to the PS when plugging in, but that 100u probably isn't enough to wreak havoc, I don't think.      Just....odd....

[MrStab]

if it's a known issue when using BOSS tuners, i'd lean towards that. fingers crossed! i was about to call the Ghostbusters.

i did indeed mean to test the tip of the cable, Alphadog. i forgot to ask if the TS-9 was true bypassed or not - is it? i just inferred from how you phrased it that it wasn't DIY like the BSIAB. maybe the spike - if there even was one - would've been over too quickly for the DMM to pick up. it's probably not advisable, but if it turns out not to be the tuner thing, then maybe you could try putting a low voltage into the TS9 for a split second (battery+resistor) to see if it turns on the pedal. you should probably check with someone else to see if that's a bad idea or not, though.

i have trouble believing it could be caused by problems with both the pedals, just out of likelihood, but stranger things have happened.

i saw Black Sabbath live tonight for the first time! my fav band ever! they were on top form. just had to vent that. lol

[alphadog808]

if it's a known issue when using BOSS tuners, i'd lean towards that. fingers crossed! i was about to call the Ghostbusters.

i did indeed mean to test the tip of the cable, Alphadog. i forgot to ask if the TS-9 was true bypassed or not - is it? i just inferred from how you phrased it that it wasn't DIY like the BSIAB. maybe the spike - if there even was one - would've been over too quickly for the DMM to pick up. it's probably not advisable, but if it turns out not to be the tuner thing, then maybe you could try putting a low voltage into the TS9 for a split second (battery+resistor) to see if it turns on the pedal. you should probably check with someone else to see if that's a bad idea or not, though.

i have trouble believing it could be caused by problems with both the pedals, just out of likelihood, but stranger things have happened.

i saw Black Sabbath live tonight for the first time! my fav band ever! they were on top form. just had to vent that. lol

Well...it's not the tuner.  I bypassed it and it still happens.   

The BSIAB is DIY, but the TS9 is a commercial one...not sure if it's bypassed; I suspect not as the TS9 actually turns on when I plug in the BSIAB.  I don't think my BSIAB is strange enough to flip a true bypass...

Very cool you got to see Sabbath; not too many cool bands make it down here to Hawaii...

Gonna take a look through the internals to see if I missed something....

[MrStab]

at least in Hawaii you probably don't have constant rain, cold temperatures and ~4pm sunsets like here in Scotland! lol

i realised i wasn't really clear with my suggestion, by which i meant briefly putting a low voltage into the tip of the guitar input/output of the TS9, not into the DC jack (just regular power there). but again, it may be risky. actually maybe you shouldn't do that. i would, but i'm just that kind of idiot.

have you tried not just bypassing the tuner, but taking it out altogether, including disconnecting the power, and seeing if it happens then?

[alphadog808]

heh, true, true...

The problem isn't tied to the sound input or/and output of the TS9 and/or the BSIAB.  It's something to do with the power/chain, I think.  After doing more testing, it seems that the BSIAB is fine, I even removed all the connections to the 3PDT on the BSIAB(hoping it was bad) and it was still happening.  I even tried removing other pedals in the daisy chain thinking that they might be involved...no dice.

I have 2 daisy chains on my board and I did notice that it happens only with one daisy chain...

So, rather than killing myself over this, I just moved the BSIAB to the other daisy chain...*shrug*.  It bothers me, but I guess I'll just have to figure that one of the daisy chains are...*weird*.  Still, very strange.  Oh well, I'm sure I'll run into more important strange issues as I move along in this hobby.   

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions; I really appreciate it.

[MrStab]

i was thinking something along the lines of voltage going somewhere it shouldn't in the TS9 as opposed to a straightforward power problem, but sounds more like a problem with the daisy chain/PSU as you say. i've had the LED's dim on pedals on inadequate power supplies when plugging into (the DC jack of) other pedals, but nothing quite like this issue. could be that (isolated?) output on your power supply has something up with it. i'm definitely no expert on power supplies, unfortunately. sounds like you're narrowing it down at least!